Brandishing??

This is a discussion on Brandishing?? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 19 Kilo I'm a little hazy on whether this is a rumor or a holdover from a revised statute, but I heard ...

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Thread: Brandishing??

  1. #16
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 19 Kilo View Post
    I'm a little hazy on whether this is a rumor or a holdover from a revised statute, but I heard the same thing from other CCW holders before I took my class and got my permit.

    My instructor was very clear, when the question came up, to say that this is not brandishing.

    Now, as a side note, if you are at Wally World, and you reach up for the last can of corn and someone sees your weapon and alerts a manager, the manager has the right to ask you to leave, even if they don't have one of the no guns signs in the door. He/She/It is acting as the voice of the company and should (to some degree) be respected in that capacity. An LEO would likely side with them to keep the peace.

    the only problem with that is, Walmart's policy is to go along with state law; they approve of OC in OC states, and any manager asking you to leave is violating corporate policy.

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  3. #17
    New Member Array 19 Kilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    the only problem with that is, Walmart's policy is to go along with state law; they approve of OC in OC states, and any manager asking you to leave is violating corporate policy.
    But, this isn't a question of OC, it's a question of a CCW holder, reaching up for something, exposing the butt of the weapon, and potentially having an older customer from a less gun friendly state (snowbird) or someone just ignorant running over to a manager and telling him that "That man has a gun".

    While what you say is true, it depends on several assumptions:

    1.) The customer complaining isn't panicked, irrational, vocal, etc.
    2.) The mid-level register biscuit who approaches you understands all facets of both corporate policy and state law.
    3.) If he brings LEOs along:
    a.) They know corporate policy
    b.) They are up for defending your right to carry a gun in the corn section of the store
    c.) They aren't tired at the end (or start) of a shift and won't just ask you to take it on the arches to shut all the civilians up.

    In the end, however, I think my point was more that the course covered the fact that in AZ, even if the store does NOT have the "No Guns" sign posted (which, BTW, is now a Desert Eagle with a circle-slash), they have the right to ask you to leave.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array cz75luver's Avatar
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    I was told when I took my CCW course that printing would be considering brandishing if a person calls/involves LE. It would be assumed the person felt threatened and that's, supposedly, all it would take. Further told concealed meant exactly that - out of sight. I'd rather not chance it so I conceal well.

  5. #19
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    Where did you take your class? Arizona doesn't even have a brandishing charge, its considered disturbing the peace.

  6. #20
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cz75luver View Post
    I was told when I took my CCW course that printing would be considering brandishing if a person calls/involves LE. It would be assumed the person felt threatened and that's, supposedly, all it would take. Further told concealed meant exactly that - out of sight. I'd rather not chance it so I conceal well.
    your profile sys your from FL, which, if true, means that you must carry concealed; FL has no provision for open carry. AZ, if a gun that was concealed becomes visible, it merely goes from being concealed carry to open carry, not brandishing.

    i still can't believe a CCW instructor in AZ would give out such bad information.

  7. #21
    Member Array Trumpetchuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munch View Post
    I am certainly not an expert, but from what I have been taught concealed means just that, concealed. If someone can see it then it ceases to be concealed. The person that sees the weapon has the right to complain and a store manager may call the police. How would anyone know that you have a license to carry? Then I would suspect that your intentions will be considered. If you reach for your wallet or something on a high shelf those movements are not threatening. Brandishing means to "display in a threatening manner." While it would probably be a defensible charge under the circumstances that you describe, it is not unimaginable that the situation could lead to criminal charges given some areas distaste for gun ownership etc. Carrying concealed also would include taking appropriate measures to insure that the weapon doesn't print either like, through thin material.
    +1 in Michigan.
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  8. #22
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    Well, I recall the CCW class I attended here in ‘Lizard Spit’ Arizona and I’m fairly certain this is a typical over-reach of interpretation. Our young instructor was a full-time officer with the local PD and he never mentioned this or anything close to it. Believe me, it was covered, and it was rolled back to ‘use common sense’.

    Essentially, an officer ‘can’ arrest you for practically anything if he/she is willing to bend or otherwise stretch the law or intent. Conversely, he/she will have to answer to their supervisor, the city/district attorney, the judge and his peers. As a former LEO, nobody likes it when a fellow officer acts like a jerk and makes a fool of the department or agency.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
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  9. #23
    Member Array Kahrdoor's Avatar
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    Under AZ law, if you are in a self defense situation you may; state that you are armed, if the situation escalates you may show your gun, if it further escalates you may place your hand on your weapon. None of this is considered brandishing.This is a recently signed law. I cannot find anywhere in the statutes anything re: printing or accidental showing of a weapon considered brandishing. Suggest reading the Arizona Revised Statutes Chapter 13.
    Last edited by Kahrdoor; January 14th, 2010 at 10:06 AM. Reason: Complete sentence.

  10. #24
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    I hate "instructors" like this. I wish they would do the gun world a favor keep their day jobs.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cz75luver View Post
    I was told when I took my CCW course that printing would be considering brandishing if a person calls/involves LE. It would be assumed the person felt threatened and that's, supposedly, all it would take. Further told concealed meant exactly that - out of sight. I'd rather not chance it so I conceal well.
    Not true.
    FL law says the weapon must be concealed from "ordinary" view. Printing has nothing to with it; there is no FL statute regarding printing as brandishing. If it's covered, it's not in ordinary view. What someone might see "printing" may be a cell phone, keys, or an Ipod, which I see all the time. A lump cam be anything, and no lump can be called brandishing, where as taking the weapon out can be. There's so much "what I've ben told" and what I heard" out there that the only real answer is to look up yoour state laws regard the subject.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  12. #26
    Member Array oldogy's Avatar
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    Make yourself knowledgeable about the law as it applies to your state, your area. How does the law define brandishing?..Then and only then will you know.
    oldogy
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  13. #27
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    I'm from Arizona too although I'm currently in Iraq. Not an expert. You see a lot of open carry in AZ depending on the area. People generally don't get too upset at the sight of a gun. If you printed at the store and some hysterical hippie called the police it would be a tough sell to say you were brandishing. If you moved your outer garment aside to specifically show someone your weapon, in a threatening manner, that is considered brandishing. Or, if you're driving along and hold the weapon up so the occupants in the car next to you can see it, that's considered brandishing. Getting in trouble for printing in an open carry state would be a waste of time for everybody concerned. Just be sensible, dress conservatively and exhibit good manners and you'll never have any trouble.
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  14. #28
    Member Array Kahrdoor's Avatar
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    Had a PM from Saber and he ask that I add to my post. I was referring to Arizona Revised Statutes 13-421 when I posted that you could go as far as placing your hand on your gun in a self defense situation without it being considered brandishing.

  15. #29
    New Member Array Martin's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. I searched the statutes and feel I understand now. There was one paper from a lawyer that suggests that a person that sees the weapon and becomes "fearful of imminent harm" could possibly press assault charges, but then again it was from a lawyer.

    For the record, the class was given by Raven. They were not LEO's. It may be their way off pressing the "keep it concealed" point.

    Thanks for the info!

  16. #30
    New Member Array ballisticn8's Avatar
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    from AZ here

    As stated previously with Arizona being an open carry state if you were to reach up to grab an item or even bend down while in a store and your weapon were to become visible it would not be considered brandishing a weapon, it would simply no longer be concealed which is perfectly legal here in Az.

    Even if there were to be a hysterical (uneducated) customer that was deathly frightened and notified management or the police that you were carrying a gun you wouldnt receive any sort of infraction/punishment for it as you have every legal right to carry (in permissable carry areas: no banks, city parks, gov buildings or places where it has been posted no weapons allowed). Even if a manager or store employee were to call the police the officers would not and could not respond under Az law unless you were asked to leave the store by store management and you refused to comply (trust me, happened to me when I was 17 and my manager advised me to contact the police due to a guy carrying a gun at the Blockbuster I worked at and that was the exact response the operator had, "Have you asked the gentleman to leave? Is he displaying it in an aggresive or threatening manner?"). At that point if you are asked to leave and you dont it does becomes trespassing and then the police would respond and their response probably wouldnt be kind as they would be notified that you have refused to leave a property when asked and you are armed.

    There was recent changes made to carry laws regarding displaying a weapon when you are threatened vs. brandishing but I dont remember the exact codes or wording and am entirely too lazy to look it up right now but its my opinion that if you have your CCW you have an element of surprise and shouldnt display that element unless you need to use force...

    Please forgive me for the book :)
    Devil Riders 2 wheels > 4 wheels

    <--this smiley just gave up the element of surprise, the best element you have when you conceal carry...

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