nearly drew/sprayed bum today, LEO saw and intervened

This is a discussion on nearly drew/sprayed bum today, LEO saw and intervened within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 9MMare I dont necessarily disagree. Except that if he's unarmed, as it 'seemed' so far in that scenario, then you may end ...

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Thread: nearly drew/sprayed bum today, LEO saw and intervened

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I dont necessarily disagree. Except that if he's unarmed, as it 'seemed' so far in that scenario, then you may end up having to explain it to a jury. You will have to make sure that they understand that you perceived a deadly threat.

    And there's certainly no guarantee there, altho I'd say TX is pretty friendly that way.

    As a woman, this is certainly something that I have to consider....even if he's not armed but he advances in a certain manner. How will I prove his 'intentions?' That's why retreat is a good option when there is no firearm (or even knife) in view.

    This holds for brandishing and 'threat of deadly force' charges too. It's not worth it IMO. If I can get away, I will.

    I think he could make is point of feeling threatened. The guy had followed him for a time; the guy was ramping up his verbage and anger within that verbage; the guy was speeding up as he walked behind the OP. All in all if it went to court and it might I think that most "reasonable folks" would feel that "they were in danger of great physical harm or death" in the situation. The quote come from the stand your ground law in Kansas the rest is "of one's self or another". Would I attempt to reteat, yes and the OP had he "Continued to walk away from the 'BG'". It was not until he felt threatened by the "bg" that he turned to face his agressor so as to meet force with force if needed. I, like others, think the OP did a good job of:
    1) situational awareness
    2) attempting to avoid the conflict
    3) meeting the threat with the needed force to stop the threat

    I personally think the LEO's showing up at the right time was a God send that kept the OP from having to discharge his peper spray and/or his firearm!!

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array gilraen's Avatar
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    I think there is every reason for Pcon to have felt threatened, and I think he did it *exactly* right.

    Good for you, Pcon.

    (This thread reminded me to buy more Red Sabre. I passed them out to my kids and daughter-in-law, and kept one for myself.)
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  4. #33
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    [QUOTE=pcon;1451293]Wow...what a day so far and it's not even 2pm!

    PCON -- I too am glad everything turned out well. Your reactions and instincts kicked in without overreacting (that is most commendable).

    But, best if all, your after reaction was what I admire -- you were honestly scared, and tried to do the right thing. Some guys here, and I remember one in particular with an apparantly vicious dog (which I do not debate) where after he shot the dog sounded almost gleeful and boastful, esp in the way he (if my memory serves me right) went back after the dog.

    I'm no dog lover -- people first, esp my family and loved ones, but his after reaction seemed a bit strange -- his adrenalin was still pumping as he responded to other in the thread that he started days afterwards.

    But, you sir (as I would most likely) did not want to "gun down" anyone, even the BG -- except as a last resort; this is the way it should be.

    That being said, I am actively lobbying the Virginia legislature to adopt the Florida-style Castle Doctrine for our Commonwealth.

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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-JB View Post
    Actually there is a guarantee. He would never see a courtroom. In Texas you can draw your weapon as a threat of force, and it's not considered a threat of deadly force...

    There is no brandishing charge in Texas. I guess it's best to run if you have to, but it's not required in TX.
    Can you explain the bold???

    And yes, I'd definitely leave the scene if possible, rather than drawing or shooting.

    If you drew on the man in the scenario and the cop saw that....you are then 'a guy holding a gun on an unarmed man.' No matter what exchange he heard, you have now escalated the situation dangerously...and unnecessarily.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMI View Post
    I had to laugh at your comment of, 'aw crap'.. I say that to myself when creeps approach.

    Glad you thought on your feet and went for the OC before the boomstick. Coulda made a mess. ;)

    Despite the 'text book' warning to the BG, I think you had a very clear and cool thought process, and acted very responsibly.

    I applaud you buddy. :)
    LOL yeah me too! That was a very real thought and stated just like we would all think. I carry the spray for the same damn reason. The simple fact that we carry a firearm is reason enough to have an alternate solution. I mean; if we are approached and feel physically threatened (fear for life) then we’ll use what we have. This fact is very much elevated because we know that a big risk we have, that others don’t, is that we can’t afford to be overpowered whereby our gun is taken and used against us.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
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  7. #36
    Member Array Oaklands's Avatar
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    Well done Pcon. You did what you had to do and tried to walk away from the situation but he was determined not to let you do so.
    I must have more 1911's. Someone donate me a Springfield EMP.

  8. #37
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    Glad you're safe man. I guess this just made me wake up and realize I need something non-lethal in my inventory. A knife and pistol wouldn't have been a good choice if I was put in that same position.
    "Stand your ground, don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!" - John Parker April 19th, 1775 Lexington, MA

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  9. #38
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    'Glad you're OK...I was thinking of a pepper spray when I went to the gun store this afternoon and changed my mind.
    Bill and Izzie: Proud parents of a soldier.
    I thought of you all day today when I was at the zoo.

  10. #39
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    Good job and thank for sharing. A good learning moment for all of us!
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  11. #40
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    re: TX-JB

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-JB View Post
    Actually there is a guarantee. He would never see a courtroom. In Texas you can draw your weapon as a threat of force, and it's not considered a threat of deadly force...

    There is no brandishing charge in Texas. I guess it's best to run if you have to, but it's not required in TX.
    Both of these comments needs some clarification, because they are quite misleading about our law.

    First, you are right there is no brandishing charge. However, there is a charge for intentional display-- same thing basically.

    And there is the charge of assault with a deadly weapon.

    You may not intentionally display except when the use of lethal force is justified. Fear by itself is not justification.

    There was in this instance no legal use of lethal force possible, and therefore no justification for intentional display. It would have been quite illegal to draw.

    What you had in this situation, as frightening as it was, was an unsubstantiated raw fear. Texas law deems that insufficient for the display of a weapon.

    This aspect of TX law is one reason a handgun is of limited usefulness as a means of personal self-defense against these experienced street thugs who know how to intimidate without crossing the line to a point where you can lawfully use any force at all.

    Nothing the thug said by itself demonstrated the legal elements needed for the presentation of a firearm in defense.

    Note, I'm not saying the guy wasn't a BG. I'm not saying one isn't justified in being scared. I am saying the street thug's comments fell short of what is needed to pull a gun on him.

    And, even a squirt with pepper spray might still be assault in this instance. The thug displayed no weapon, didn't use explicitly threatening language, etc.

    Second, maybe I've missed something, but I don't think we have a so called stand your ground law similar to the one in Colorado. I think outside your house you must attempt to retreat if possible.

    It was a close one, and Pcon is very lucky the law was there to intervene.

  12. #41
    Member Array RogerThat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger View Post
    Sounds like something I went through recently. Only my attacker was a dog! I am all for people carrying pepper spray, however, during the non-lethal part of my Marine training, we learned that some people are immune to it and that it just REALLY pissed them off! So that and the fact that if I was in that situation and I turned and spotted a gun or knife in his hand, all I have is a can of spray, not much good my gun is doing inside my pants!

    Its a personal carry option for me, I recommend to people that pepper spray is a good tool to have. My wife carrys it. I dont, I would rather go for my gun and watch the dude soil his pants. Then, if he trys anything, its just a few ounces on the trigger. Its just one less thing to worry about.

    Good job on handling a situation that could have gone really bad. Thanks for sharing.
    What happened with the dog situation? My boss has two rotts and a great dane and I have to pick up my work truck every morning at 3am and they get out every blue moon
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  13. #42
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    Hopyard, I couldn't disagree any more...
    TX-JB has it right

    Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

    Sec. 9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:
    (1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;
    (2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm clearly outweigh, according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the conduct; and
    (3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.

    Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
    (1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
    (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
    (B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

    if I was the LEO witnessing this and he had drawn on the guy, all he has to do is tell me he was in fear of his life, he thought the guy was trying to rob him, I'm not touching him

    pcon, I drive by that mall every time I go see my relatives down there, I'll need to PM you the next time I'm coming through and see ya
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  14. #43
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    To justify lethal force or the threat thereof you need to meet and articulate the following 3 criteria. And all three criteria must meet the "reasonable person" standard.
    Keep in mind this is not state specific info, but a generic explanation good in most states.

    Intent
    Opportunity
    Ability

    Intent: Through words or actions the aggressor displays the intent to cause death or grave bodily injury.

    Opportunity: The aggressor is close enough to cause grave bodily injury or death. This will vary depending on the instrument utilized.

    Ability: Through the use of a weapon, disparity in size/age/gender/numbers or known skill levels the aggressor has the ability to inflict death or grave bodily injury.

    It's all in the articulation of your perception of the events weighed against the reasonable person standard.
    I could have articulated the need for lethal force... but then again I'm a CCW instructor and use of force consultant.

  15. #44
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    Great job, pcon
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  16. #45
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    re: 64 Zebra

    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    Hopyard, I couldn't disagree any more...
    TX-JB has it right

    Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
    OK, how was this requirement fulfilled by the thug's actions? How was the use of force justified? What did the thug do to indicate that he was going to use lethal force? The thug shouted, "come here?" The thug made comments that Pcon was rude?

    I'm not naive. We all know what was going down, but it was short of the requirement for use of lethal force or the threat of lethal force.

    if I was the LEO witnessing this and he had drawn on the guy, all he has to do is tell me he was in fear of his life, he thought the guy was trying to rob him, I'm not touching him
    I guess you have that discretion as the man on the spot, but what would this scenario really look like if pcon had drawn and fired. Then, if no weapon was found on the thug or in his hands? He frightened me wouldn't cut it for pcon as a defense.

    No weapon, no actual physical assault, but dude's laying there with a hole in his shoulder and blood spurting out? Are you so sure you would believe pcon's story that he was in fear for his life? What if thug turned it on pcon at that point. "Officer, man, I just asked him for some coffee money and the dude pulled it out and shot me." "What a blinkin maniac. Can't believe he did that, oh man, wow."

    See, the thug created the appearance that something really bad was going to be done to pcon, but he might ('cause he is what he is) have just been playing with him. No weapon, no actual physical assault. We don't know that a robbery was going to happen and there was no aggravated robbery.

    I've had a guy play me like that one time when I was in downtown Atlanta. He was trying to get his kicks out of running at me as if he was going to harm me. When I didn't blink he turned at the last moment and walked off laughing. Was I in fear, you bet. Was my fear reasonable? You bet. But there was no justification for using lethal force or the threat of lethal force. Situations like this are very dynamic and there is only one point where it is ripe.

    I'm tempted to bow to your knowledge and experience as you say you are an LEO (I think you have written that), but your understanding of the paragraph you posted and mine are different.

    In any case, we do have a law against intentional display, and I think we don't have a stand your ground law as in Colorado. Can we agree on this?

    These are important points that I *and we all Texans* need to properly understand.

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