nearly drew/sprayed bum today, LEO saw and intervened - Page 4

nearly drew/sprayed bum today, LEO saw and intervened

This is a discussion on nearly drew/sprayed bum today, LEO saw and intervened within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Hopyard I'm not naive. We all know what was going down, Do you consider yourself a reasonable person? The legal standard is ...

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Thread: nearly drew/sprayed bum today, LEO saw and intervened

  1. #46
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I'm not naive. We all know what was going down,
    Do you consider yourself a reasonable person?
    The legal standard is your perception of the facts, not necessarily the reality of the situation.
    That's how people brandishing a cell phone can be justifiably shot under the right conditions.
    Reality is lethal force is not justified when a cell phone is pointed at you , but if lighting conditions and other mitigating factors show that you perceived the cell phone to be a handgun lethal force is justified.

    As to the original scenario/post.
    Aggressive behavior including both verbal and non-verbal threats along with proximity and toss in a "furtive movement" and you have justification.
    Pretty simple for a LAWYER to articulate the justification.
    Key word LAWYER.
    If this situation had of escalated to lethal force or even the threat of lethal force, your first statement to the police would have been "I want a lawyer present during all questioning".


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array ep1953's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I dont necessarily disagree. Except that if he's unarmed, as it 'seemed' so far in that scenario, then you may end up having to explain it to a jury. You will have to make sure that they understand that you perceived a deadly threat.

    And there's certainly no guarantee there, altho I'd say TX is pretty friendly that way.

    As a woman, this is certainly something that I have to consider....even if he's not armed but he advances in a certain manner. How will I prove his 'intentions?' That's why retreat is a good option when there is no firearm (or even knife) in view.

    This holds for brandishing and 'threat of deadly force' charges too. It's not worth it IMO. If I can get away, I will.
    No flame intended at all but how do you know someone approaching in an aggressive manner is unarmed?

    Also, according to the OP he was trying to get away. The BG would have nothing of it and closed the distance while getting more aggressive. I think he did good.

    I hope you never have to face such a situation but if you do I'm glad you will have more to bring to your defense than just your feet.

  3. #48
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    btw: a good friend of mine was nearly killed within just a few blocks of where this situation went down back in the early '90's.
    He was hit in the head from behind with a bat and left out in the snow for 6 hours or so. The concussion and hypothermia almost did him in.
    All that for the $20 in his wallet.

  4. #49
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    I am glad everything ended well for you. I wish I never had to experience a similar situation, but I doubt it.
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    Good job. Sounds like you did the right thing. Don't shoot, don't shoot, my shift is almost over.
    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    The bum probably wanted money. If you ignore them they can get real persistent.

  7. #52
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    Sounds like I need to invest in some pepper spray for myself. My work forbids carrying it but I think I will get one for CC.

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMI View Post
    I had to laugh at your comment of, 'aw crap'.. I say that to myself when creeps approach.

    Glad you thought on your feet and went for the OC before the boomstick. Coulda made a mess. ;)

    Despite the 'text book' warning to the BG, I think you had a very clear and cool thought process, and acted very responsibly.

    I applaud you buddy. :)
    I say that too..... when I see something about to come down. LOL

    Maybe the guy got a free meal from the citizens of the county for tonight.

  9. #54
    Member Array Rich219's Avatar
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    Sounds like you handled it pretty well.

  10. #55
    Distinguished Member Array pcon's Avatar
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    To the point of feeling physically threatened...to the extent that this is possible, I never had fear of my imminent death. The guy never displayed a weapon and never actually said "I'm going to kill you". As hopyard said, I did feel frightened. It was more fear of getting kicked or punched or something, but (it may be naive) I did not fear that he was going to kill me. He gave me no indication that was his intention.

    Because of this, I personally did not feel that actually drawing my weapon (and God forbid) shooting would have been justified. I really am not sure how the LEO felt about the level of confrontation.

    I truly do believe that OC spray was the way to go and the gun, excuse me being punny, would have been over kill.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    What did the thug do to indicate that he was going to use lethal force?
    The thug didn't have to indicate he was going to use deadly force. Read the statute's 64Zebra posted. The threat of deadly force can be used as a threat of force and is not considered deadly force, unless deadly force is actually used...

    I'm not naive. We all know what was going down, but it was short of the requirement for use of lethal force or the threat of lethal force.
    I never said he could use deadly force. I said threatening the use of deadly force, was justified in this case. Again, look at the statute's posted by 64Zebra...

    I've had a guy play me like that one time when I was in downtown Atlanta. He was trying to get his kicks out of running at me as if he was going to harm me. When I didn't blink he turned at the last moment and walked off laughing. Was I in fear, you bet. Was my fear reasonable? You bet. But there was no justification for using lethal force or the threat of lethal force.
    Maybe there wasn't justification in Atlanta, but it would be reasonable grounds in Texas. One more time, read the statutes 64Zebra posted...

    In any case, we do have a law against intentional display, and I think we don't have a stand your ground law as in Colorado. Can we agree on this?
    Well kind of... There is a charge of 'Disorderly Conduct - Displaying a firearm in a manner calculated to alarm '. It would not have applied in this instance, if Pcon had pulled his gun...

    No we can't agree about a stand you ground law... If you don't think there is such a law, you really need to review the newest version of the Texas Penal Code... Texans have no duty to retreat from any place they have a lawful right to be. 'Stand Your Ground' and 'No Duty to Retreat' are the same thing... Read the statutes...
    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas!".... Sam Houston

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  12. #57
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    If a bad guy(s) has:

    - The ability to harm you.
    - The opportunity to harm you.
    - Intent to harm you.

    You have cause to defend yourself.

    If no weapon is presented, I might take a blow from a single assailent before taking desperate action. Multiple attackers might prompt earlier action.

    I have been accosted on the street several times and I have used verbal threats, sometimes with a loud explosive voice to get the person to change their mind. Usually I say "BACK OFF!"

    However, as I get older and older, I now realize that I cannot always physically defend myself and may not be able to convince someone to back off. So I decided that I must carry.

    We do have crazies on the street. I once asked a cop about the way they deal with crazies. He told me that a crazy can kill you just as dead as a sane person. That thought has stuck with me.

    If we could keep the crazies detained and the criminals locked up, we might not be having some of these conversations.

  13. #58
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Seems to me that in a "no retreat" state that there is no use for spray. If you feel the need to use the spray, you could at least "display" the gun and be that much ahead of the curve.

  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array pcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Seems to me that in a "no retreat" state that there is no use for spray. If you feel the need to use the spray, you could at least "display" the gun and be that much ahead of the curve.
    I may have the legal OK to do it, but that doesn't mean that I WANT to. I really would rather avoid drawing a gun and potentially escalating to shooting if I can avoid it.
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  15. #60
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcon View Post
    I may have the legal OK to do it, but that doesn't mean that I WANT to. I really would rather avoid drawing a gun and potentially escalating to shooting if I can avoid it.
    And good for you. I personally want to get home to my family,and don't believe that I can decide to spray,not spray, gun, no gun in the time that a situation like this allows.

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