nearly drew/sprayed bum today, LEO saw and intervened

This is a discussion on nearly drew/sprayed bum today, LEO saw and intervened within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What about the use of a small flashlight/kubaton before pepper spray? What about the danger of you getting some of it back in your face ...

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  1. #61
    njr
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    What about the use of a small flashlight/kubaton before pepper spray? What about the danger of you getting some of it back in your face if the bum goes to clinch on you? If you're going for non-lethal, the flashlight is a better option, I've read.

    Also, any studies on how effective pepper spray is on average or on criminals or bums?
    By the forests, behind the guns/In the streets and in the houses/Between the tanks, by the roadside/At the hands of the men, of the women, of the children/In the cold, in the dark, in hunger....

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  3. #62
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    Hopyard, the BG did not have to show that he was going to use lethal force, I'll give you my bit by bit breakdown as I would look at this as a cop

    He stops and says "come here man", so I said "no, no thanks" and kept walking.
    BG stopped showing he was targeting pcon, he was told "come here" by the BG, pcon said no but BG continued to harass him, pcon tries to walk away from him and the guy follows anyway, at this point he is a threat

    "why, you scared dude?" (said with a bit of anger)
    guy is asking if pcon is scared, another sign the guy isn't collecting for the Red Cross....in pcon's words--he said it with a bit of anger, pcon can articulate this guy is now escalating his threatening manner

    I just kept walking, not responding. he was behind me now, so I looked back every few seconds to see where he was. I couldn't cross the road, it was very busy and I didn't want to stop moving.
    again, pcon can articulate that he reasonably believed this guy was a threat to him and his life, money, etc due to this guy coming after him, which is what he is doing at this point

    "dude...quit ignoring me like a sucka, it's rude". I heard him speed up his shuffle a bit. trying to close the distance to pcon

    A few more seconds and he says something along the lines of "I may take offense if you don't turn around" said with more hostility. this is a direct threat, pcon can again articulate that this guy's language, voice, and manner have increased in hostility

    At this point, glancing back, I saw him come up on me quick
    at this point, based on the BG's actions so far, he is now an imminent threat since he is now charging pcon....and it doesn't matter if he is showing a gun, knife, club or whatever....a threat of serious bodily harm or robbery is here now...period

    I guess you have that discretion as the man on the spot, but what would this scenario really look like if pcon had drawn and fired. Then, if no weapon was found on the thug or in his hands? He frightened me wouldn't cut it for pcon as a defense.
    look at all my points above, its more than him just saying he is frightened

    No weapon, no actual physical assault, but dude's laying there with a hole in his shoulder and blood spurting out? Are you so sure you would believe pcon's story that he was in fear for his life?
    yes
    I've gone up against guys that were bigger than me, they were unarmed, I'm in uniform....and I'd be perfectly justified in shooting them if I can articulate that they threatened my life, disparity of size and any/all other circumstances in a situation are factored into these things

    What if thug turned it on pcon at that point. "Officer, man, I just asked him for some coffee money and the dude pulled it out and shot me." "What a blinkin maniac. Can't believe he did that, oh man, wow."
    thats why officers get both sides of the story, pcon can articulate the details of where they first made contact with each other, what was said, how far the guy followed, pcon tried to get away from him, guy made threatening statements, ran up on him to attack him

    See, the thug created the appearance that something really bad was going to be done to pcon,

    yes! yes he did....thats part of the answer you're looking for

    but he might ('cause he is what he is) have just been playing with him.
    then he is an idiot for doing that to someone on the street that has blatantly, obviously, clearly told the BG that pcon was not interested and was trying to get away from him

    No weapon, no actual physical assault. We don't know that a robbery was going to happen and there was no aggravated robbery.
    true, all points true.....but the law I quoted for you doesn't say this is a requirement
    Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
    (B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

    note it says to prevent....this means you're stopping it before you're the victim of such offenses

    I've had a guy play me like that one time when I was in downtown Atlanta. He was trying to get his kicks out of running at me as if he was going to harm me. When I didn't blink he turned at the last moment and walked off laughing. Was I in fear, you bet. Was my fear reasonable? You bet. But there was no justification for using lethal force or the threat of lethal force. Situations like this are very dynamic and there is only one point where it is ripe.
    I can't tell you what is legal in Georgia, and I understand your actions here, I would also understand your actions if this had occurred in Dallas and you drew the gun out telling him to get the ----- back or you'll blow his head off
    it will be a bad day for someone if they do this to me on the street, the minimum being they will have physical harm brought on them

    I'm tempted to bow to your knowledge and experience as you say you are an LEO (I think you have written that), but your understanding of the paragraph you posted and mine are different.
    oh crap, don't bow to me
    but yes, I am a cop

    In any case, we do have a law against intentional display
    well, no not exactly
    Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

    maybe you're thinking of this:
    Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:
    (8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

    OR
    Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

    however, these will not apply in a SD situation, the CHL and other laws allow for displaying the weapon in defense
    (h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.

    and I think we don't have a stand your ground law as in Colorado. Can we agree on this?
    no, we can't agree on this
    this is the same section I quoted earlier, just a subsection further down on page....this is what everyone calls castle or stand your ground law
    Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.
    (c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.
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  4. #63
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    re: 64Zebra

    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    Hopyard, the BG did not have to show that he was going to use lethal force, I'll give you my bit by bit breakdown as I would look at this as a cop

    He stops and says "come here man", so I said "no, no thanks" and kept walking.
    BG stopped showing he was targeting pcon, he was told "come here" by the BG, pcon said no but BG continued to harass him, pcon tries to walk away from him and the guy follows anyway, at this point he is a threat

    "why, you scared dude?" (said with a bit of anger)
    guy is asking if pcon is scared, another sign the guy isn't collecting for the Red Cross....in pcon's words--he said it with a bit of anger, pcon can articulate this guy is now escalating his threatening manner

    I just kept walking, not responding. he was behind me now, so I looked back every few seconds to see where he was. I couldn't cross the road, it was very busy and I didn't want to stop moving.
    again, pcon can articulate that he reasonably believed this guy was a threat to him and his life, money, etc due to this guy coming after him, which is what he is doing at this point

    "dude...quit ignoring me like a sucka, it's rude". I heard him speed up his shuffle a bit. trying to close the distance to pcon

    A few more seconds and he says something along the lines of "I may take offense if you don't turn around" said with more hostility. this is a direct threat, pcon can again articulate that this guy's language, voice, and manner have increased in hostility

    At this point, glancing back, I saw him come up on me quick
    at this point, based on the BG's actions so far, he is now an imminent threat since he is now charging pcon....and it doesn't matter if he is showing a gun, knife, club or whatever....a threat of serious bodily harm or robbery is here now...period

    look at all my points above, its more than him just saying he is frightened

    yes
    I've gone up against guys that were bigger than me, they were unarmed, I'm in uniform....and I'd be perfectly justified in shooting them if I can articulate that they threatened my life, disparity of size and any/all other circumstances in a situation are factored into these things

    thats why officers get both sides of the story, pcon can articulate the details of where they first made contact with each other, what was said, how far the guy followed, pcon tried to get away from him, guy made threatening statements, ran up on him to attack him


    yes! yes he did....thats part of the answer you're looking for

    then he is an idiot for doing that to someone on the street that has blatantly, obviously, clearly told the BG that pcon was not interested and was trying to get away from him

    true, all points true.....but the law I quoted for you doesn't say this is a requirement
    Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
    (B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

    note it says to prevent....this means you're stopping it before you're the victim of such offenses


    I can't tell you what is legal in Georgia, and I understand your actions here, I would also understand your actions if this had occurred in Dallas and you drew the gun out telling him to get the ----- back or you'll blow his head off
    it will be a bad day for someone if they do this to me on the street, the minimum being they will have physical harm brought on them

    oh crap, don't bow to me
    but yes, I am a cop

    well, no not exactly
    Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

    maybe you're thinking of this:
    Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:
    (8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

    OR
    Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

    however, these will not apply in a SD situation, the CHL and other laws allow for displaying the weapon in defense
    (h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.


    no, we can't agree on this
    this is the same section I quoted earlier, just a subsection further down on page....this is what everyone calls castle or stand your ground law
    Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.
    (c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.
    First, thanks for taking the time to lay this out as cogently as you did.

    Second, somehow I was unaware of 9.32--possibly it wasn't in the book last time I renewed. I do like it!!!! I know I was given a very specific example of someone who got into trouble by not retreating, so this is a big improvement over the past.

    Third. I think your interpretation of some of the code is a bit more, pardon the expression, liberal, with respect to when the threat to use lethal force is justified, but that's OK.

    I've taken a very cautious approach in this thread and in one other because I think there is too much of a perception by many that we are the wild west. And we are not. We had very very strict gun laws when I first moved here 36 years back and they have been slowly liberalized, including the recent changes, but we are still far from wild -west.

    As a rule of thumb I like the ability, opportunity, jeopardy, and "intent" test as a guide, keeping in mind that statute overrides every time.

    This is a very important and very good discussion and I'm sure lots of folks who have read this thread will benefit from it.

    Again to Pcon. I think you handled it great.

  5. #64
    Senior Member Array gilraen's Avatar
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    That was great information, 64zebra. It's good to see a LEO's dissection of an incident. It helps us make better decisions.

    Thanks, from a fellow Texan.
    "I pledge allegiance to the war banner of the united states of Totalitaria. And to the Republic, which no longer stands, several bankers, who are now god, indivisible, with Bernanke bucks and credit for all."

  6. #65
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    Good job and good thinking about not going to your gun first as many have said. Glad everything turned out ok.

    P.S.
    I wish Colorado would adopt some of Texas' laws. Colorado is good but Texas sounds great and I almost lived there. Wish I would have looked into some laws before moving back to Colorado.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilraen View Post
    That was great information, 64zebra. It's good to see a LEO's dissection of an incident. It helps us make better decisions.

    Thanks, from a fellow Texan.
    +1
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    Just shoot the guy next to you in the knee and run like heck.

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njr View Post
    What about the use of a small flashlight/kubaton before pepper spray? What about the danger of you getting some of it back in your face if the bum goes to clinch on you? If you're going for non-lethal, the flashlight is a better option, I've read.

    Also, any studies on how effective pepper spray is on average or on criminals or bums?
    The problem with that is in order to strike a threat with a kubuton or flashlight, the threat has to be right on top of you as within (not at) arm range.

    How long are your arms? Mine are roughly 3' long.
    Put yourself in PCon's shoes.
    Would you purposely slow and stop your attempt to maintain/gain distance _away_ from a threat to give all that up so as to allow what is a THREAT to close on you, so as to secondarily defend yourself using hands on technique?

    Fighting in a 3' (at arms length!) radius is difficult and very dangerous.
    Your opponent has arms, and legs, too. That may be longer than your own.
    Those arms are attached to hands which for all you know may have access to concealed weapons, too.
    Giving up distance already gained is a foolish play. Unless you are a law enforcement officer specifically tasked to do such thing including running head long toward and into danger.

    For a civilian though who has intent to be and remain safe to do so makes no sense at all.

    The key here as stated multiply by PCon is to get away and be safe. With _distance_, as from a threat, comes safety. Being close to a threat is a definition of danger.

    Use of hand strikes, kubuton, flashlights edged weapons and other such hand to hand methods of defense is a literal last ditch measure as in relation to danger and a threats proximity to your own physical being. Worst case scenario!

    Meanwhile having at hand OC/CS is a very effective _stand off_ tool and method.
    What this means is it will allow the operator to either maintain distance/ground or gain distance/ground as away from a threat. The product does not have to disable and negate the threat. Just to slow down and discourage them enough to buy time for the operator so as to gain ground toward escape (flee!!!) or to have time to react in some other way such as using the strong hand to grasp a firearm while the weak hand is holding the OC/CS and spraying.

    As to effectiveness OC/CS is well effective enough that most every state, city, and town police including sherrif carry them as part of their standard kit...right along side their handcuffs and gun.
    Yes there have been _many_ studies done and for a wide majority of people it is functional. Handguns and bullets don't work on 100% of persons under 100% of instances but I don't see anyone here arguing against carry of that? Nor do I hear same from LEOs.

    Yes OC/CS can blow back on you if in a wind.
    This is a training issue as well is with modern product options can be well resolved by being selective in what product you buy as related to nozzle type and product type. Solutions that have been in place a decade now.
    Same as how in a knife fight very often the defender winds up being cut by their own knife. This too is a product mechanics issue that can be overcome if you know better and purchase selectively.

    The key difference as with OC/CS though as related to LEOs and civilians is that LEOs use as much toward _engaging_ a threat. Closing distance. They use it to aid with suppression and to gain active compliance from a threat.
    While we as civilians do not need any of that. We simply use it to again gain distance and escape as in _flee_. It works very well for that purpose and as such is suggested.

    Again PCon did good all the way around in every way.
    As well he would have been well within right to use the spray as to his own defense AND further he showed excellent judgment both in situational awareness as well as understanding of threat escalation AND how to and by what means to handle a given threat.

    His case, IMHO, should be viewed by all reading this thread as being a model in how to handle and react as well as think your way through an active and real imminent threat.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugergirl View Post
    Great job, pcon
    I fully agree!!!
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
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    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
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  10. #69
    njr
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    Thanks for the clarification, Janq. I'll now use, in order: pepper spray, flashlight, knife (no ccw where I live).

    Congratulations, pcon.
    By the forests, behind the guns/In the streets and in the houses/Between the tanks, by the roadside/At the hands of the men, of the women, of the children/In the cold, in the dark, in hunger....

    Bertolt Brecht, "To The German Soldiers In The East", stanza 9.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post

    I've had a guy play me like that one time when I was in downtown Atlanta. He was trying to get his kicks out of running at me as if he was going to harm me. When I didn't blink he turned at the last moment and walked off laughing. Was I in fear, you bet. Was my fear reasonable? You bet. But there was no justification for using lethal force or the threat of lethal force. Situations like this are very dynamic and there is only one point where it is ripe.

    No offense, but your and my definitions of threat must be different. I don't see how someone that you don't know, who aggressively charges/runs towards you wouldn't be considered a threat.

  12. #71
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    The vagrants (Local Celebrities I call them around the Hotel's guests) are becoming more aggressive and desperate.

    Long gone are the days of "please".

    Any more, I hear, "Give me a cigarette/money/etc...".

    I avoid them, or shine my tac-light at their face and start asking rapid-fire questions.

    So far, they wander off in a helpful manner.

    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Donít mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

    Convenire Volui Spectatus

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilMonk View Post
    The vagrants (Local Celebrities I call them around the Hotel's guests) are becoming more aggressive and desperate.

    Long gone are the days of "please".

    Any more, I hear, "Give me a cigarette/money/etc...".

    I avoid them, or shine my tac-light at their face and start asking rapid-fire questions.

    So far, they wander off in a helpful manner.

    we see that here too.....our panhandlers are going into more parts of town now, approaching people at all kinds of stores and approaching cars at intersections
    most of them are repeat offenders we arrest for public intox, trespassing, and some have there TDCJ cards
    some of them are going to get hurt, and hurt bad due to there perseverance and tenacity at times
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  14. #73
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    re: GatorCpE

    Quote Originally Posted by GatorCpE View Post
    No offense, but your and my definitions of threat must be different. I don't see how someone that you don't know, who aggressively charges/runs towards you wouldn't be considered a threat.
    Apparently so.

    The law (and our practical world) are full of adjectives that need to be taken into account: words like reasonable, imminent, disparity, deadly or lethal, force (needs a qualifier). Reasonable, imminent, fear, disparity all are entirely situation specific.

    In the specific instance I mentioned, my gut told me the guy was likely to break it off, though I could not be sure. Were he serious, likely there would have been some sort of attempt on my part to retreat at the last moment, to side step, etc. If pursued, then yes it would have been game on in one way or another. He didn't utter a word of threat. He didn't show a weapon. Just stared and headed toward me.

    Suppose he got close and said, "hey I just saw you drop your wallet, here it is?" Or maybe he was running not at me as it appeared but at an attacker behind me-- dude was maybe plain clothes.

    I think what we all need to keep in mind is that these situations are horrendously dynamic and there is only one point at which the presentation of lethal force in the form of a gun is ripe.

    I think a guy like 64Zebra when performing his duties has a little more room to make assumptions about the motives of the folks he encounters. If he pulls his gun on someone mistakenly or unwisely, he might get a reprimand, but he isn't going to be charged. (Fair or not, that's the way it is.) We non-LEOs will be charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

  15. #74
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    Thumbs up

    Good job pcon. You responded well. The whole situation leads me to believe the thug was building himself up to get physical and maybe with a blade or a Lorcin in his pocket, who knows?
    God Bless Texas.

  16. #75
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    pcon, sounds like you did a great job of handling things. Don't worry about sounding textbook. That textbook response would have covered your butt very well in court.

    Pat yourself on the back buddy. You done good.
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