This is a discussion on Does your permit make you "A cut above"? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 9MMare I see no reason why they shouldnt be the ones paying ALL the consequences for those choices, not the law-abiding. But ...
Interesting thread.Does having a CHP make you “A cut above”?
You ask if have a permit makes you a "cut above", but you did not elaborate.
A "cut above" what? A cut above say, a citizen of Illinois that does not have a permit system in which he can legally defend himself?
A "cut above" the average citizen that does not even realize that he needs to take responsibilty for his own life or those of his family?
A "cut above" someone with little or no training with a handgun or someone that has never even handled one?
A "cut above" the common street thugh that carries a beat up .38 in his waistband and has 3 different brands of bullet in it?
What exactly are you implyimg when you say a "cut above"?
That term may mean 50 different things to 50 different people. So, please, tell us what you really mean.
Freedom of speech means nothing to those who are too weak in their convictions to speak out against the evil that eating the heart of a nation like a cancer- Billy Graham
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
Maker of cool things to shoot
I was always a "Cut above". My state just decided to allow me to have one of my rights when they issued my permit.
When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. - Thomas Jefferson
A cut above? No. More aware and responsible for your family and yourself? Yes. Having a CCW permit is one link less in the chain of legal proceedings against yourself after using a weapon in a defensive manner
This is something I posted earlier in a thread about whether we (as permit holders) have an obligation to come to the aid of citizens in distress. I feel that it is still accurate and germane to this discussion
First I am, again, convinced that a large percentage (please note I did not say all or even most) of participants in this forum have a hero complex and can not wait to deploy their handgun and be a “sheepdog” (your label not mine).
I also believe that if the stars and gods all align and any of you ever get your one in a million shot at a defensive shooting, you had better pray that it isn’t even a little bit shaky or the DA isn’t up for re-election because he/she is going to crawl up your sigmoid colon W/ a microscope and when he/she finds your thousand plus posts here detailing your “obligation to protect the flock” and your intent to “go in guns blazing and shoot to kill” He’s going to paint you as “The Brave One” ( and he’d be spot on W/some of you) and throw your behind under the jail.SPOT ONOriginally Posted by Ram Rod
My permit is not a status symbol.
I am firmly convinced that a portion of the members here see their permit as exactly that, a status symbol. I believe that members of this sub set do some how feel that their permit makes them a caped avenger.
There was actually an old thread on THR.org in which a poster wanted to make a bunch of "sheepdog" pins for permit holders to wear as a means of identifying each other. I think that mindset carries over into the threads I see posted about how permit holders can't wait to tell the cop that just pulled them over that they're armed, IMO it's one of the most ridiculous attitudes I've ever come across and thats where my mind went when I read the comment about the permit making us a "cut above' (That does not mean that I think the person that originally posted it is a member of the wannbe club it just means that's where my mind went)
You ask if have a permit makes you a "cut above", but you did not elaborate.You'd have to ask the person that originally said it.What exactly are you implyimg when you say a "cut above"?
I believe I've made my POV fairly clear
Specifically ONLY in situations where I have witnessed heinous acts of violence against innocents, I am of this sort: to believe that it is the absolute right of innocents to stop the violence and halt the harm to others. Nothing more.but when I come to some of these forums, even this one, I am shocked at just how many replies come from people who sound just like those descriptions. The whole 'blow 'em away' mentality, 'kill em all and let God sort 'em out,' etc. Very holier than thou.
But, in a very simple sense, it is not for me to judge what is ultimately to become of such people who commit these acts. I am but one member of my community. I may have my opinions, but outside the actual situation the criminal has perpetrated and I have attempted to clean up, "God" or "the system" or "others" or "fate/karma/whatever" will "sort 'em out." That doesn't seem a bad thing, since, quite frankly, in such a situation I am going to have far more important things to deal with than to worry about the ultimate fate of a violent criminal that I have stopped.
In the end, as for the "perp," all I really care about is that such a person has little possibility of ever doing such a thing again.
I have never yet met a person who has such a mindset. Where are these people? Do they congregate? Or, is it all malarkey and only visible in discussion forums where anonymous/false presence is possible for the wad?I can not understand the mindset that our status as permit holders makes us some kind of elite subset of the average law abiding citizenry.
Some are. Some aren't. Only the weak-minded, IMO, allow a CHL "badge" to lead to a change in status. Again, I have yet to meet anyone who believes a piece of paper from the state made a person a different class of person, internally, or in terms of one's moral compass or core purpose in the "flock."I believe that this type of thinking leads to the “sheep dog” myth ...
Yup. And no pretty papers from some unknown agency bureaucrat will change my will in this regard. I know what's right and important, for myself and my family. I'll do what is required to defend the things that matter, irrespective of a bureaucrat's stamp of approval.I carry a gun to defend myself and my family.
Absolutely. It comes from within. It hardly comes from someone else's stamp of permissions approval on what they've found, though that helps others to see what would otherwise be a question mark, initially. The filtering process and the marking of a person as having gone through the filter is essentially all a permitting process does.I am a cut above, but its not because of my permit, its because of my moral compass and my training.
"Good" doesn't arise from that, per se. Though, the simple fact that being armed with a deadly weapon does raise the bar a bit, if only legally. Society now deems me, as a person who has been vetted as a person with a higher power, and with that comes higher responsibility ... to behave better, to avoid conflict, to avoid escalation, to withdraw if at all possible, to minimize damage, to consider impacts on others, etc. Such additional requirements of the person with greater power is now assumed, assumptions that don't readily apply to someone who has not gone through such a vetting process and who does not have such an increased power in hand. The result should be "good," a better person's actions, many of the marks of what a good person does.
So. Call it what you will. Seems clear to me that nothing springs from the CHL, like magic in one's soul. You either are or aren't the sort of person with higher standards, a stronger moral compass, a stronger will to do what's right and honorable. Amongst a large group of people, though, it's more probable for a CHL to be granted to such people. Correlation v causation. Little more, at least for everyone I have ever met, and almost certainly for most folks.
SleepingZ's point, I believe, is simply this: that a person either does or doesn't already, inherently, have the stronger moral compass, understanding of right and wrong, and the willingness to stand up personally for what's right in potentially violent situations against us. A CHL permitting process is merely society's stamp to indicate one has been found to not be in a prohibited class of persons, little more. It has nothing to do with the inherent, underlying mindset and makeup of the person.
As opposed to what's being suggested in this thread, that mindset derives from the granting of a CHL from bureaucrats, as if morality, character and strength can be rubber-stamped in some fashion. "Delusions" and whatnot simply don't occur to the type of folks who SleepingZ and others are speaking of.
Something to keep clear, as we chew on the cud.
You can follow the herd hereI have never yet met a person who has such a mindset. Where are these people? Do they congregate? Or, is it all malarkey and only visible in discussion forums where anonymous/false presence is possible for the wad?
Or you can watch this thread and see who gets really PO'd that's usually a good indicator
I wish! If something it makes me have to obey the law even more
"The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"
I just don't get people that think like that. Instead, I agree to disagree on those things while realizing we all agree on the right to keep and bear arms and for mentally competent, law-abiding citizens to be able to lawfully carry concealed pistols.
A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.
To me, that's important in my decision-making process. Yes, it's better to 'be judged by 12 than carried by 6' but if you have options, you'd do well to consider them.
This is just one example:
"I also believe that if the stars and gods all align and any of you ever get your one in a million shot at a defensive shooting, you had better pray that it isn’t even a little bit shaky or the DA isn’t up for re-election because he/she is going to crawl up your sigmoid colon W/ a microscope and when he/she finds your thousand plus posts here detailing your “obligation to protect the flock” and your intent to “go in guns blazing and shoot to kill” He’s going to paint you as “The Brave One” ( and he’d be spot on W/some of you) and throw your behind under the jail. "
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
I'm not a lawyer or a LEO, just a pantload with a computer.
I don't think so. My MI CPL tells the State that I'm legal to carry a concealed pistol, at the time I passed the application and met the criteria of the State of MI . Beyond that, nothing else.
If others think I am somehow or somewhat better than others, that is their opinion.
As far as my own opinion, I think I am a good person,I mind my manners, have strong moral values, believe in treating others the way I would like to be treated, I value life(mine and others),but as far as somehow being better than the next guy(or gal), I don't feel I am.
Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.
You said that criminals are responsible for their behavior but that should a gun that honest citizen uses in SD cause harm to come to a criminal then, given the advantage of hindsight, there may be cause for remorse for carrying that gun to the scene.
My point, that you seem to embrace, is that an honest citizen like me may rightly and without malice or ego carry and use a gun for self-defense.
I wanted to clarify because when you sayyou seemed to cast aspersions on citizens who carry and who are ready and willing to use weapons in self defense.I think it's a matter of ego in 90% of the cases (just IMO)
You made some good points in this thread. But you lost me in the post that I quote. And I thought that I might not be the only one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.