Does your permit make you "A cut above"? - Page 3

Does your permit make you "A cut above"?

This is a discussion on Does your permit make you "A cut above"? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 9MMare I see no reason why they shouldnt be the ones paying ALL the consequences for those choices, not the law-abiding. But ...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I see no reason why they shouldnt be the ones paying ALL the consequences for those choices, not the law-abiding.

    But once a gun is in play, even drawn, even made visible on a hip...the dynamics of any situation changes. And dont kid yourself (anyone)....you do not have control over those changes. And it becomes a risk to anyone in the vicinity. And do you really want to live with even one, even the bg's, death on your conscience, when you know you could have done otherwise?

    Just walk/run away. I think it's a matter of ego in 90% of the cases (just IMO).
    Changing the dynamics is the point of my gun. Not that a gun is going to cause a death, but the only life the BG's choice has a right to take is his own.
    IMO, law-abiding CC would be much more generally suspect if 90% of the cases were a matter of ego.


  2. #32
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    Does having a CHP make you “A cut above”?
    Interesting thread.

    You ask if have a permit makes you a "cut above", but you did not elaborate.

    A "cut above" what? A cut above say, a citizen of Illinois that does not have a permit system in which he can legally defend himself?

    A "cut above" the average citizen that does not even realize that he needs to take responsibilty for his own life or those of his family?

    A "cut above" someone with little or no training with a handgun or someone that has never even handled one?

    A "cut above" the common street thugh that carries a beat up .38 in his waistband and has 3 different brands of bullet in it?

    What exactly are you implyimg when you say a "cut above"?

    That term may mean 50 different things to 50 different people. So, please, tell us what you really mean.
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  3. #33
    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
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    I was always a "Cut above". My state just decided to allow me to have one of my rights when they issued my permit.
    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
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  4. #34
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    A cut above? No. More aware and responsible for your family and yourself? Yes. Having a CCW permit is one link less in the chain of legal proceedings against yourself after using a weapon in a defensive manner

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    Changing the dynamics is the point of my gun. Not that a gun is going to cause a death, but the only life the BG's choice has a right to take is his own.
    IMO, law-abiding CC would be much more generally suspect if 90% of the cases were a matter of ego.
    Thanks. That's pretty good proof of my point, altho I dont understand the last sentence.
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  6. #36
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    This is something I posted earlier in a thread about whether we (as permit holders) have an obligation to come to the aid of citizens in distress. I feel that it is still accurate and germane to this discussion

    First I am, again, convinced that a large percentage (please note I did not say all or even most) of participants in this forum have a hero complex and can not wait to deploy their handgun and be a “sheepdog” (your label not mine).

    I also believe that if the stars and gods all align and any of you ever get your one in a million shot at a defensive shooting, you had better pray that it isn’t even a little bit shaky or the DA isn’t up for re-election because he/she is going to crawl up your sigmoid colon W/ a microscope and when he/she finds your thousand plus posts here detailing your “obligation to protect the flock” and your intent to “go in guns blazing and shoot to kill” He’s going to paint you as “The Brave One” ( and he’d be spot on W/some of you) and throw your behind under the jail.
    Originally Posted by Ram Rod
    My permit is not a status symbol.
    SPOT ON

    I am firmly convinced that a portion of the members here see their permit as exactly that, a status symbol. I believe that members of this sub set do some how feel that their permit makes them a caped avenger.

    There was actually an old thread on THR.org in which a poster wanted to make a bunch of "sheepdog" pins for permit holders to wear as a means of identifying each other. I think that mindset carries over into the threads I see posted about how permit holders can't wait to tell the cop that just pulled them over that they're armed, IMO it's one of the most ridiculous attitudes I've ever come across and thats where my mind went when I read the comment about the permit making us a "cut above' (That does not mean that I think the person that originally posted it is a member of the wannbe club it just means that's where my mind went)

  7. #37
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    You ask if have a permit makes you a "cut above", but you did not elaborate.
    What exactly are you implyimg when you say a "cut above"?
    You'd have to ask the person that originally said it.

    I believe I've made my POV fairly clear

  8. #38
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    but when I come to some of these forums, even this one, I am shocked at just how many replies come from people who sound just like those descriptions. The whole 'blow 'em away' mentality, 'kill em all and let God sort 'em out,' etc. Very holier than thou.
    Specifically ONLY in situations where I have witnessed heinous acts of violence against innocents, I am of this sort: to believe that it is the absolute right of innocents to stop the violence and halt the harm to others. Nothing more.

    But, in a very simple sense, it is not for me to judge what is ultimately to become of such people who commit these acts. I am but one member of my community. I may have my opinions, but outside the actual situation the criminal has perpetrated and I have attempted to clean up, "God" or "the system" or "others" or "fate/karma/whatever" will "sort 'em out." That doesn't seem a bad thing, since, quite frankly, in such a situation I am going to have far more important things to deal with than to worry about the ultimate fate of a violent criminal that I have stopped.

    In the end, as for the "perp," all I really care about is that such a person has little possibility of ever doing such a thing again.


    I can not understand the mindset that our status as permit holders makes us some kind of elite subset of the average law abiding citizenry.
    I have never yet met a person who has such a mindset. Where are these people? Do they congregate? Or, is it all malarkey and only visible in discussion forums where anonymous/false presence is possible for the wad?

    I believe that this type of thinking leads to the “sheep dog” myth ...
    Some are. Some aren't. Only the weak-minded, IMO, allow a CHL "badge" to lead to a change in status. Again, I have yet to meet anyone who believes a piece of paper from the state made a person a different class of person, internally, or in terms of one's moral compass or core purpose in the "flock."

    I carry a gun to defend myself and my family.
    Yup. And no pretty papers from some unknown agency bureaucrat will change my will in this regard. I know what's right and important, for myself and my family. I'll do what is required to defend the things that matter, irrespective of a bureaucrat's stamp of approval.


    I am a cut above, but its not because of my permit, its because of my moral compass and my training.
    Absolutely. It comes from within. It hardly comes from someone else's stamp of permissions approval on what they've found, though that helps others to see what would otherwise be a question mark, initially. The filtering process and the marking of a person as having gone through the filter is essentially all a permitting process does.

    "Good" doesn't arise from that, per se. Though, the simple fact that being armed with a deadly weapon does raise the bar a bit, if only legally. Society now deems me, as a person who has been vetted as a person with a higher power, and with that comes higher responsibility ... to behave better, to avoid conflict, to avoid escalation, to withdraw if at all possible, to minimize damage, to consider impacts on others, etc. Such additional requirements of the person with greater power is now assumed, assumptions that don't readily apply to someone who has not gone through such a vetting process and who does not have such an increased power in hand. The result should be "good," a better person's actions, many of the marks of what a good person does.

    So. Call it what you will. Seems clear to me that nothing springs from the CHL, like magic in one's soul. You either are or aren't the sort of person with higher standards, a stronger moral compass, a stronger will to do what's right and honorable. Amongst a large group of people, though, it's more probable for a CHL to be granted to such people. Correlation v causation. Little more, at least for everyone I have ever met, and almost certainly for most folks.


    Quote Originally Posted by SleepingZ View Post
    I have no "delusions of grandeur", but if the responsibility of carrying a gun, and your training, and your mental attitude is no different than the "average citizen" you may want to re-evaluate your whole ccw situation.
    Treo, your response to this statement (immediately above) is what prompted the creation of this thread. We all need to be clear in what SleepingZ was saying, versus how you have described the sentiment in the OP.

    SleepingZ's point, I believe, is simply this: that a person either does or doesn't already, inherently, have the stronger moral compass, understanding of right and wrong, and the willingness to stand up personally for what's right in potentially violent situations against us. A CHL permitting process is merely society's stamp to indicate one has been found to not be in a prohibited class of persons, little more. It has nothing to do with the inherent, underlying mindset and makeup of the person.

    As opposed to what's being suggested in this thread, that mindset derives from the granting of a CHL from bureaucrats, as if morality, character and strength can be rubber-stamped in some fashion. "Delusions" and whatnot simply don't occur to the type of folks who SleepingZ and others are speaking of.

    Something to keep clear, as we chew on the cud.
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  9. #39
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    I have never yet met a person who has such a mindset. Where are these people? Do they congregate? Or, is it all malarkey and only visible in discussion forums where anonymous/false presence is possible for the wad?
    You can follow the herd here

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...se-others.html

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...sheepdogs.html

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...og-action.html

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ong-intro.html

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-sheepdog.html

    Or you can watch this thread and see who gets really PO'd that's usually a good indicator

  10. #40
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    And other delusions of granduer
    I had the same gut reaction when I read that. The "cut above" and "sheepdog" attitudes fit right in with the principle of showing your carry permit when pulled over "out of respect for the officer."

    I just don't get people that think like that. Instead, I agree to disagree on those things while realizing we all agree on the right to keep and bear arms and for mentally competent, law-abiding citizens to be able to lawfully carry concealed pistols.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    There was actually an old thread on THR.org in which a poster wanted to make a bunch of "sheepdog" pins for permit holders to wear as a means of identifying each other. I think that mindset carries over into the threads I see posted about how permit holders can't wait to tell the cop that just pulled them over that they're armed, IMO it's one of the most ridiculous attitudes I've ever come across and thats where my mind went when I read the comment about the permit making us a "cut above' (That does not mean that I think the person that originally posted it is a member of the wannbe club it just means that's where my mind went)
    +1 And the THR.org is an excellent source of the continually sending home the legal ramifications of the use of your firearms. They always point out that you can be 100% right in your use, and still lose your home.

    To me, that's important in my decision-making process. Yes, it's better to 'be judged by 12 than carried by 6' but if you have options, you'd do well to consider them.

    This is just one example:

    "I also believe that if the stars and gods all align and any of you ever get your one in a million shot at a defensive shooting, you had better pray that it isn’t even a little bit shaky or the DA isn’t up for re-election because he/she is going to crawl up your sigmoid colon W/ a microscope and when he/she finds your thousand plus posts here detailing your “obligation to protect the flock” and your intent to “go in guns blazing and shoot to kill” He’s going to paint you as “The Brave One” ( and he’d be spot on W/some of you) and throw your behind under the jail. "
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    I think that mindset carries over into the threads I see posted about how permit holders can't wait to tell the cop that just pulled them over that they're armed, IMO it's one of the most ridiculous attitudes I've ever come across and thats where my mind went when I read the comment about the permit making us a "cut above' (That does not mean that I think the person that originally posted it is a member of the wannbe club it just means that's where my mind went)
    I would guess you were referring to me. The night I was pulled over, a member of the officer's department had been ambushed, and killed answering a staged 911 call. I thought it common decency to inform him, and ask how he wanted me to conduct myself. It was nerve rattling to expose my state to him, and the coworker carpooling with me. I will do the same from that night on. Having read a few other of your posts, I will accept that we will not be able to agree on this point.
    I'm not a lawyer or a LEO, just a pantload with a computer.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Interesting thread.

    You ask if have a permit makes you a "cut above", but you did not elaborate.

    A "cut above" what? A cut above say, a citizen of Illinois that does not have a permit system in which he can legally defend himself?

    A "cut above" the average citizen that does not even realize that he needs to take responsibilty for his own life or those of his family?

    A "cut above" someone with little or no training with a handgun or someone that has never even handled one?

    A "cut above" the common street thugh that carries a beat up .38 in his waistband and has 3 different brands of bullet in it?

    What exactly are you implyimg when you say a "cut above"?

    That term may mean 50 different things to 50 different people. So, please, tell us what you really mean.
    A cut above? Me?
    I don't think so. My MI CPL tells the State that I'm legal to carry a concealed pistol, at the time I passed the application and met the criteria of the State of MI . Beyond that, nothing else.
    If others think I am somehow or somewhat better than others, that is their opinion.
    As far as my own opinion, I think I am a good person,I mind my manners, have strong moral values, believe in treating others the way I would like to be treated, I value life(mine and others),but as far as somehow being better than the next guy(or gal), I don't feel I am.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Thanks. That's pretty good proof of my point, altho I dont understand the last sentence.
    That's OK. I was trying to understand yours as they seemed contradictory to my limited powers of comprehension. Here's how I understand what you said.
    You said that criminals are responsible for their behavior but that should a gun that honest citizen uses in SD cause harm to come to a criminal then, given the advantage of hindsight, there may be cause for remorse for carrying that gun to the scene.
    My point, that you seem to embrace, is that an honest citizen like me may rightly and without malice or ego carry and use a gun for self-defense.
    I wanted to clarify because when you say
    I think it's a matter of ego in 90% of the cases (just IMO)
    you seemed to cast aspersions on citizens who carry and who are ready and willing to use weapons in self defense.
    You made some good points in this thread. But you lost me in the post that I quote. And I thought that I might not be the only one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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