Does your permit make you "A cut above"? - Page 5

Does your permit make you "A cut above"?

This is a discussion on Does your permit make you "A cut above"? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by BigStick To me, the permit itself means nothing. The permit does not change who I am, what I am capable of or ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    To me, the permit itself means nothing. The permit does not change who I am, what I am capable of or what I believe. It is simply legal documentation, like my drivers lisence. Wether we are a cut above the rest or not depends on a whole lot of other things. I would venture to say that the majority of people here on DC ARE a cut above the rest. Not because we have permits, or even carry guns, but by the virtue that we are here, means that we take the responsibility that comes from carrying a deadly weapon seriously, and are at least attempting to educate ourselves, increase our awareness, and train to make ourselves better. Not better than others, but better than we were, attempting to be the best that we can.

    The permit means nothing. What it tends to indicate about the person is what is significant.
    +1
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
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  2. #62
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Why? if I'm a law abiding citizen my weapon is no threat to you, if I'm not I'm certainly not going to tell you. I n the mean time I don't have to worry about getting faceplanted because you (generic) don't believe civilians should carry guns
    One reason is that if I do (did) have cause to search your vehicle, you have already notified me of something to expect and you have indeed, established a small amount of trust. What if you end up having to have your vehicle towed....with some trust established, you may be allowed to retrieve your gun(s), clear them, and keep them. Lots of small things make a difference.

    While you really cant 2nd guess anyone's mind.....anything you can do to quiet a LE's mindset can only work in your favor....ego never works. It may make you feel better, but it wont get you anywhere. So it's your call.

    And in a state where you must show it, and you dont, then that would be a problem, but it sounds like that's not your state. (All states seem to be different)

    BTW, if LE has a valid reason for pulling you over or addressing you for any presumed infraction in other circumstances, they already believe you are no longer law-abiding. It's up to that to be revealed in the situation...hopefully. If not, it's up to the courts to decide.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    The sheep, wolf, sheepdog analogy ... did serve to imply that people with permits (sheepdogs) were better in some way than the "sheep" who choose not to carry a gun or the "wolves" who prey on the "sheep".

    That bothered me then and still does. It is an elitist attitude using a strongly negative word for the vast majority of people. People in general are not "sheep".

    Eagles are to rabbits as wolves are to sheep.

    Foxes are to mice as wolves are to sheep.

    In general, predators are to prey as criminals are to the unaware and unprepared.

    And, quite simply, being less aware and less prepared makes one more likely to be prey (or, at least more likely to succumb if preyed upon) than otherwise would be the case. Conversely, by having greater awareness and preparation, a person is less likely to be taken as prey ... less likely to be seen as a rabbit or sheep by the predator eagle or wolf.

    I suppose one could construe this as elitism. I don't think it is. Rather, I think it's a simple metaphor that's quite reasonable in showing the relationship and probabilities involved, when speaking of criminals and innocents.

    Predators exist. Prey animals are simply who predators target. Rabbits, sheep and other such animals are examples of prey. The unwitting, unaware, untrained, unskilled and uncaring masses fall into this category, too. No surprises, there.

    Don't want to be one? Then, improve your odds by improving mindset, skills, awareness. Until then, you might well be in the category of prey ... sheep. It's simply the single word that encompasses the epitome of being at the mercy of the predator.

    If anyone is bummed by the term, it should be the sheep themselves, or those who love them. But, they are what they are, and it comes from lack of mindset, awareness, skills, and the ability to withstand attack. In a way, it should be embarrassing to be so helpless when under attack, to instead have to force others to risk themselves to assist when such people prove to be so helpless. If a bit of embarrassment or "sheepish" feeling can help people to improve the odds, so much the better. That's not elitist. It's simply a fervent wish they help themselves.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  4. #64
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    One reason is that if I do (did) have cause to search your vehicle
    Officer, I do not consent to any searches

    you have already notified me of something to expect and you have indeed, established a small amount of trust.
    Officer, I do not wish to make any statement or answer any questions at this time. Am I free to go?

    anything you can do to quiet a LE's mindset can only work in your favor...
    The only thing that works in your favor in a police interaction is asserting your rights.

    That said if I were ever asked to step out of the car I would inform because I know I'm going to be patted down at that time

  5. #65
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Eagles are to rabbits as wolves are to sheep.

    Foxes are to mice as wolves are to sheep.
    So are sheepdogs when the rancher isn't looking

  6. #66
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    I believe that most folks on this forum consider the use of lethal force as a last resort, no other choice scenario. I've observed posts about situational awareness, non-lethal options, etc. I also think that a fair number of folks here would do something (not necessarily draw or shoot) if they saw a guy beating a little old lady in a dark parking lot. I would feel compelled to do something whether I was carrying or not. I don't think that is indicative of any type of hero complex, but more a reflection of my Christian values to help others. Every situation you encounter is unique, and you can't prepare for every possibility. I am not responsible for anyone other than my family, but I will do what I can safely to help others in need. Mostly that means an anonymous donation of food, shelter, or volunteering for local civic groups. I've never had to help someone in a defensive type of manner...but depending on the circumstances I would do what I thought was safe and prudent.

    If there are people out there with an itchy trigger finger hoping to encounter a situation where they can deploy their weapon, then in my opinion they are idiots who should not have a weapon and are detrimental to our fight to keep our rights.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  7. #67
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I suppose one could construe this as elitism. I don't think it is. Rather, I think it's a simple metaphor that's quite reasonable in showing the relationship and probabilities involved, when speaking of criminals and innocents.
    It is a reasonably effective metaphor for getting predator-prey point across, I guess, but I think too many non-LEO people take the sheepdog part of the metaphor too literally - thus the perceived elitism and role change attitude. I think for the average permit carrying person a better metaphor might be "I am now an alert ram with bigger horns".

  8. #68
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    It is a reasonably effective metaphor for getting predator-prey point across, I guess, but I think too many non-LEO people take the sheepdog part of the metaphor too literally - thus the perceived elitism and role change attitude. I think for the average permit carrying person a better metaphor might be "I am now an alert ram with bigger horns".
    In reality, you either are or aren't alert, capable, prepared and willing. The CHL has little to do with it. At least, for me. Bigger horns, though. Yeah, that's probably correct. The "greater power" thang, now having the firearm with you.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  9. #69
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    "I am now an alert ram with bigger horns".
    Some how, saying that someone is a sharp,big,ram just dosent have the utility that "sheepdog" does.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  10. #70
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Officer, I do not consent to any searches



    Officer, I do not wish to make any statement or answer any questions at this time. Am I free to go?



    The only thing that works in your favor in a police interaction is asserting your rights.

    That said if I were ever asked to step out of the car I would inform because I know I'm going to be patted down at that time

    You assume that I have no grounds. If the search was pertinent, I'd have grounds. And I wouldnt have stopped you for no reason, so we would have had some kind of chat...period. Or you wouldnt be free to go until you complied.

    Like I said, it's completely your call how you deal with LE. How I reacted to your statements would be based on my reasons for the stop and probable suspicions.

    If you acted like that with me, and I had just courteously pulled you over for a busted tail light...you might end up with the ticket instead of the friendly reminder.

    But like I said...it's your call. There are jerk cops out there. And there are jerk citizens. Neither are usually accommodated the way that they prefer :-)
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #71
    Member Array Brian@ITC's Avatar
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    I don’t think that a piece of paper makes you anything other than legal to carry. As far as training goes, it varies from state to state and I’ve personally seen states that require training for CCW/CHL licenses have absolutely nothing to do with concealed carry. So, if the training that one receives is not relative to concealed carry, what good is the training other than having had some “sort” of training?

    In Indiana we are not required to take any type of training which I think that it’s the way it should be in every state. However, it is your moral obligation to get properly trained on proper gun safety and get some training on concealed carry.

    Even with “training”, does that mean you will be successful in defending yourself with your gun? No…

    Having the proper skills may put you on a different level than others. But not having training that is practical and realistic for concealed carry purposes just means that you are kidding yourself about being “above” most people.
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    Brian K. LaMaster

  12. #72
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    You assume that I have no grounds. If the search was pertinent, I'd have grounds.
    I don't care if you have grounds or not. I don't care if you hand me a warrant I'm still going to go on record as not consenting to the search and if you find anything my attorney is going to go over your warrant W/ a fine tooth comb.
    And I wouldnt have stopped you for no reason, so we would have had some kind of chat...period.
    I have the right to remain silent at all times whether you Mirandize me or not
    Or you wouldnt be free to go until you complied.
    There's a limit to how long you can detain me W/ out PC and as soon as you tellme I'm NOT free to leave I'm shutting up until I talk to my lawyer, who is likely going to tell you to charge me or release me now .

  13. #73
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Treo, dude...I told you....it's your choice. Seems like a headache to me, but have at it.

    Last I checked, lawyers cost $.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #74
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Last I checked, lawyers cost $.
    Last time I trusted a cop it almost cost me a hell of a long time in the can

    You might want to read 'You and the Police" by Kenneth W. Royce writing as Boston T. Party.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    Freedom doesn't mean cheap, it means free.

    Freedom doesn't mean no headaches, it means free.

    Freedom doesn't mean easy, it means free.

  15. #75
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    I believe the post was ment to suggest 'we' should hold ourselves to a higher standard. I'm already a 'cut above'. I don't need a permit for that.

    I'm not a sheepdog to ANYone....except when my family or circumstances need me to be or my country calls me to be. Just a choice I made.

    I AM the shepherd of my family, when my wife says so.

    My permit is nothing but a piece of paper. A badge...of anything....not hardly. What I think of myself and what I expect of myself is what matters. That piece of paper just means I have more to think about and consider in my day-to-day travels and activities. My character isn't compromised by any fantasy.

    I'm above, nor below, nobody......regardless of the fact that I'm NOT from Vermont.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

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