Scared at Costco
This is a discussion on Scared at Costco within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Avenger
What happened at Costco, I do believe I did everything right.
... since I am able to sit here and tell ...
January 18th, 2010 05:54 AM
Being here, alone, doesn't mean someone has made the best choices (what is being termed "right"). If history tells us anything, there are always alternatives.
Originally Posted by Avenger
There are many "defense" instructors, here, as well. But even people who do not instruct others can have constructive alternatives to situations. In a sense, even that is a form of instruction, if we open our minds to it.
if I went to another instructor and asked him/her what they would have done, I am sure they would give me something similar to what actually happened.
Some of the alternatives proposed are quite similar to what you report as having actually occurred. It seems to me that most vary by a matter of degrees from what you report having done.
The posts indicating merely surprise or disgust at the feelings you felt and how apparently near to drawing you came, they are simply critical of what was done without offering alternatives. Obviously none of us were there; you were. What we know, here, is only the small set of impressions and descriptions you have presented, which almost certainly is only a portion of all that you perceived at the time. As such, all that people can really do is critique and offer possible alternatives for consideration, since none was there.
Yes. It's important to recognize that many of the comments that will come in any discussion are influenced by prior discussions and knowledge of just how far some are prepared to go. The reality is this simple, that NOT every unexpected encounter with others is a mortal threat. In actuality, it takes a hell of a lot to make a situation a mortal threat. That's the point of the emphatic statements in this discussion.
There are MANY people on this board who see every unexpected interpersonal encounter as a mortal threat. Its ridiculous.
We need to all remember that life is precious, that everyone we meet is also a citizen with all rights that we have.
In the case of suggestions for alternatives that I made, I believe they are only modestly different than what you yourself did. Even slight changes in timing, position, response or engagement can have strong impact on the flow of a situation. If you have any significant amount of time in conflict situations, you'll realize the practical truth of this. Many of the best instructors in this field also recognize and leverage this simple fact, too, as it is quite powerful to realize that simple changes can have powerful effects.
There are thousands of posts made each day, here. Not everything gets the same level of "play" or visibility by the same people, hence it's hard to compare other discussions to this in any real concrete manner. There could be any number of reasons a given discussion went a certain way. Almost certainly, this discussion involves some other people with other experiences that come close to the situation you describe. It's hard to tell why a given discussion goes flat and another takes off. Often, the most idiotic things receive little reply because that's the simplest way to ignore it.
More idiotic things have been posted on this forum and not received so much crap about it!
Good people have plenty of important things to do in their lives. While I can only speak for myself, I know that I don't often post for no reason at all. When I do post, it's because I think the comments have some relevance or can help offer suggestions or alternatives to a situation that people might not have already considered. They have been offered in good faith in an honest effort at helping to provide some alternatives to consider for future situations.
As such, I would suggest that you take practical suggestions for what they are: an honest offering designed to help people in the future. Remember, your original post might have been for you, but responses are for everyone, since many people will read and learn from it. With a bit of humility and an open mind, and with an honest effort at avoiding getting the knickers in a bind, people can learn from any discussion.
Offered in good faith and with an eye toward improvement of how we engage with others.
January 18th, 2010 07:15 AM
[QUOTE=Avenger;1456442]Some good comments on here. I happen to disagree with all the "negative" ones. First, some people might not know my back ground in the military, I was overseas in combat zones for the majority of my enlistment and I am experienced in the Martial Arts. Yes, I perceive EVERYONE as a threat until I know who they are and what their intentions are. I dont know if that soccer mom at the park is a soccer mom or a potential mass murderer. Anyone and everyone is a risk and a danger to me. Yes, some people call that paranoia, some call it PTSD, but I call it being careful. If for one second, I let my guard down and not notice that seeming innocent person standing on the sidewalk at a busy intersection, I could be dead. Now, I am not saying I go to high alert status as soon as a stranger comes into my field of view. I am just saying that I am aware of their presence and I do not trust them as far as I can throw them. If they pose a higher threat to me by yelling at me in a not so friendly voice, or walking toward me in an aggressive manor when its obvious no one else is around, or starring me down, or pointing at me when he/she is talking with someone else, or, or, or... The list goes on.
What happened at Costco, I do believe I did everything right. Its not the first time someone has done that to me, its not going to be the last. It just hasnt happened in a while and it got my nerves up so I thought I would share. More idiotic things have been posted on this forum and not received so much crap about it! I mean, sure, if some of you believe that I did something wrong or something you would have done different then sure share. But expect to hear from me telling you that there are different ways of handling different situations, I since I am able to sit here and tell you about it means that on this one I did everything right! I teach this stuff for a living, maybe you all dont know this, I am sure some of you do, but, if I went to another instructor and asked him/her what they would have done, I am sure they would give me something similar to what actually happened.
Avenger - Being retired Military also and we probably chewed up some of the same ground and I've been instructed and instructing the Martial Arts/Self-Defenses for 20+ years my friend and and I've yet to meet the perfect human and I take the negative comments and examine them and see what can be useful, that's what I've been trained to do.
P.S. You really believe that 2 year old baby is a threat walking by you? As I said, being cautious is one thing, careful is cool. You would know if it's PTSD, it's not PTSD if you have to guess at it.
You can look at my comments at negative, I thought I made them as nuetral as possible, maybe not, oh well, but if you consider this is an internet board and if you post something, expect others to comment on.
I will say this again and I don't give a darn how long or what training some have had here or who they are or what they have done, some who post here see danger at every corner will sooner or later see jail time or make a fatal mistake by pulling that weapon they carry because their fear (or whatever you want to call it choose a word) will overcomes their better judgment.
That's my view on it.
"I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"
January 18th, 2010 07:43 AM
sorry...doesnt change my point of view...if nothing else the first portion of the quote reinforces it....
Originally Posted by Avenger
i would say that the reason you are able to sit here and tell us about it is because there was no threat at all...just continuing breathing was enough to allow you to share it with us....
if someone posted everytime a stranger approached them as a potential threat this forum would be real full, have a different name and dr drew would probably get a reality show out of it...
January 18th, 2010 08:12 AM
Avenger, sometimes when we put into words thoughts that were fleeting through our mind in seconds, it doesn't do justice to the actual incident. For example, something in your post that maybe drew some of the negative comments, such as the title "Scared at Costo" Yikes! However, doesn't seem like you were scared over the incident, just alerted to something unusual, and then felt uneasy about the situation, enough to share how you felt with your companions.
I'm trying to imagine myself in your situation, as you described it, and the unknown friend would have drawn my attention as something out of the ordinary, and worthwhile to keep an eye on. Nothing really bad happened, though, and the outcome was good for all.
Sometimes things happen to me through the day that cause my alertness level to rise, but, careful here, not criticizing you for posting, but don't feel the need to post them to a board. I sometimes assume (and we know where that can get you) that if someone posts an experience on this or other SD type boards, the person was really rattled to some extent. That's because my personality is not generally a "sharing" type. Others, however, are, and that's ok.
I think you did fine. You didn't draw your gun, and after reading your post a couple of times, it doesn't seem that you even came close. But I had to read your post a couple of times to come away with that sense of things.
January 18th, 2010 10:34 AM
Well listen guys, I am sorry if I misunderstood some of you. I know your only intentions are to help and I have taken away some interesting points. I know I am not perfect by any means. I have yet to post a thread with the proper title, I dont know why I said "Scared at Costco," it was the first thing that popped into my head. I often speak (or in this case, type) before I think about what I am going to say. I just got worked up trying to defend myself when I wasnt being attacked. You all were just voicing your opinions and I appreciate that. Thank you. Whats done is done, and I will answer any questions you might have but other than that, I am done with this thread. I stand by what I have said, I have tried to explain myself and my actions on an internet site about carrying a firearm and maybe that was wrong. Sorry....
January 18th, 2010 11:03 AM
Avenger, what you did was what you thought was correct at the time. If some think you have paranoia, then let them stand in your shoes and situation. We can all learn from the experiences of others. I think you handled the situation rather well considering the circumstances. Situational awareness is what we all strive for.
Anyone can be a threat, even familiar people. Just ask the loved ones of the guy who came back to his former workplace to shoot and kill people. He seemed familar, wasn't considered a threat, but we see otherwise now looking back. Like it's been said so many times, anytime, anywhere, anyplace and yes....anyone.
Glad that everyone came out safe in this incident.
It can happen and being prepared or aware of a potential threat is what it's all about.
"A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"
The Man Prayer. "Im a man, I can change, if I have to.....I guess!" ~ Red Green
January 18th, 2010 12:01 PM
I understand where you're coming from, but this isn't someone simply approaching them. This is an unknown (to the TC) man rapidly approaching them while yelling at them. It's not like the man yelled "Hey <insert father-in-law's name>!" For all the TC knows it could be some wackjob thinking they're someone else who wronged him or they stole his parking space, etc etc...
Originally Posted by bladenbullet
January 18th, 2010 12:09 PM
You may not appreciate these comments but I and others who have been critical are trying to keep you out of trouble. Early in the original post you said that you didnt think of drawing but later you said you did. You also said that you put you hand at 3 oclock which is close to draw position. You also said that you were in condition orange quickly heading to red. In Cooper's system, Red is shooting. So it sounds like you came close to red. IF you had gone to red how would you explain that to the police? You sound like a young guy, with combat experience and training in martial arts. You were approached by "an older man" with a white beard who was apparently unarmed. Even if the man was angry and took a swing at you, shooting him would not be justified. A DA and jury would likely consider you physically superior to the old guy and therefore would not consider his attack a mortal threat. It is also likely they will rule that you used a much greater level of force than was necessary to defend yourself. Even if you prevailed in court, you and your family would be financially devistated from lawyer fees, wrongful death suits, etc. Please read or re-read Ayoob's book "In the gravest extreme" to learn when and when not to shoot. Finally I will say that IMO, your attitude toward who and what are threats seems appropriate for Iraq and Afghanistan, but should be re-evaluated when in most places in the US. Good luck.
Originally Posted by Avenger
January 18th, 2010 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by stanislaskasava
You became aware of someone within attack range that had an interest in your family. You evaulated his actions with the best information you had about the individual. You focused your attention on the situation and prepared to take action should the need arise.
Once the situation was resolved you returned to condition yellow.
Seems all good to me.
January 18th, 2010 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by TedBeau
None of these guy were there yet they treat you like a paranoid freak! Maybe the old man was convincing. You did not over react because you did nothing. You saw a possible threat to you and your family and were ready to deal with it.
PS Thank you for your service. Its men like you that protect the rights we have.
January 18th, 2010 03:21 PM
Freaking out would be to start acting without thinking. Normally when a person is "freaking out" they lose any normal self control.
Originally Posted by bladenbullet
Had the OP started screaming like a banshee while running at the old man and began beating him into a bloody pulp with a club they would be freaking out.
I think the OP became alert and not freaked out. There is a huge difference. I do not freak out when surprised but my sense of awareness does become more acute.
January 18th, 2010 03:40 PM
While I don't consider every one that approaches me to be a threat, my awareness lever does rise when someone tries to get in my space or to get my attention.
Originally Posted by Avenger
I subscribe to this lever of awareness.
January 18th, 2010 05:18 PM
NOBODY has treated anyone like a freak, or a paranoid person.
Originally Posted by Snoop
The only comments folks have voiced have been suggestions for alternatives to consider, with the express purpose of helping avoid a shooting, avoid being trigger-happy, avoid going to jail, avoid failing to get home at night, avoid inserting that little financial siphon onto your bank account directly connected to your attorney's pocketbook. And the only real way in which such comments can be considered "negative" is simply due to the fact that they don't blindly support the actions as made. Remember, there are always alternatives, including some that people might not have considered.
The point of posting situations in a public forum is to generate discussion. If not about the pros/cons of the situation, then there's little reason to post.
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