Church CCW carry discussion

Church CCW carry discussion

This is a discussion on Church CCW carry discussion within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know this kind of thing has been discussed over and over but .... I'm looking to talk to some of the church elders about ...

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 46

Thread: Church CCW carry discussion

  1. #1
    New Member Array kemar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    North Central Ohio
    Posts
    9

    Church CCW carry discussion

    I know this kind of thing has been discussed over and over but ....

    I'm looking to talk to some of the church elders about CCW. There are a couple who are very concerned because "guns are dangerous" and, due to that, only one member has been authorized to carry in the building or on the grounds. I don't see that as being a good solution. It basically requires that the member be at all functions (which they can't do) and that they're in a position at all times to keep an eye on things. Again, that isn't possible either.

    I've scoured the net and come up with a number of links. The first set I've termed "Bad Stuff" and they mostly deal with church attacks. The second set of links are for statistics and various convincing material & research.

    I'm looking for additional links that you have collected, particularly dealing with safety and such.

    Bad Stuff (in no particular order)
    Church Crime History
    Pastor Killed, 2 Hurt in Illinois Church Shooting - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com
    Madisonville Parishioners Robbed at Gunpoint
    The Rocky Mount Telegram
    Local News
    George Tiller Fatally Shot at Wichita Church - NBC Action News KSHB-TV 41
    Two dead, suspect in custody in Knox church shooting
    Little Rock shooter may have had other targets
    Church Security Related Incident in Temecula, California Kkottongnae Retreat Camp Shooting | Church security site for church safety, church video surveillance, church security training, church safety information and the latest church security news.
    2008 Church Shootings up 175% over 2007 | Church security site for church safety, church video surveillance, church security training, church safety information and the latest church security news.
    Church Shooting-6 People Injured While Attending Funeral in Chicago | Church security site for church safety, church video surveillance, church security training, church safety information and the latest church security news.
    Murderer Still At Large, New Jersey - Stormfront
    Pastor Killed In Covington Church Shooting - Cincinnati breaking news, weather radar, traffic from 9News | Channel 9 WCPO.com
    Churchgoers subdue would-be robber on Cape Cod - Projo 7 to 7 News Blog | Rhode Island news | The Providence Journal
    Two Die After Clearfield Church Shooting - News Story - WJAC Johnstown
    Church shooting | NBC13.com
    Colorado Shooting Highlights Churches' New Emphasis on Security - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com
    5 Dead In Louisiana Church Shooting - CBS News
    Church, Police Probe 7 Murders - CBS News
    Police Seek Leads in Shooting at Church - washingtonpost.com
    Church shooting suspect arrested in California
    Pastor attacked at Henrico church | Richmond Times-Dispatch
    Gunman Robs Henderson Church - KTRE.com Lufkin and Nacogdoches |
    Man, 52, Charged In Neosho Church Shooting - Kansas City News Story - KMBC Kansas City
    10TV | WBNS-10TV, Central Ohio News
    Westerville teens set August date for Columbine-style attack, authorities say | The Columbus Dispatch
    USATODAY.com - Woman killed in Detroit church shooting
    Woman killed in front of churchgoers - Crime & courts- msnbc.com
    10 kidnapped in McDonald's robbery
    Luby's massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Statistics & Safety
    Ministry Violence Statistics
    FBI Statistics Show Crime Falling Despite Recession Notes from the Bartender
    FBI — Crime Stats - Press Room - Headline Archives 12-21-09
    Hate Crime Statistics, 2008
    http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/Tot...d%20Checks.htm
    Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Carrying Concealed Statistics
    Concealed Carry
    Students for Concealed Carry on Campus - ConcealedCampus.com
    CCW Statistics
    studentsforconcealedcarryoncampus.com
    Debunking specious arguments against concealed carry - Pt. 1 - The Broadside : Colorado Springs Gazette, CO
    Debunking specious arguments against concealed carry - Pt. 2 - The Broadside : Colorado Springs Gazette, CO
    Concealed-carry quietly in effect | Wichita and Kansas news | Crime, courts, weather, education, politics, events | Wichita Eagle
    Firearms ownership: One of the safest activities there is
    NevadaBrad CCW
    Democratic Underground - Except that accidental gun death rates have been in decline for decades - Democratic Underground
    Perry: Concealed guns should be allowed everywhere | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Texas Regional News


  2. #2
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    44,843
    Many facts and stats in those lists which boil down to a very basic premise...

    Stay armed...any time, any place...stay safe!
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  3. #3
    Member Array rico68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    146
    How does Ohio law read? Either the building is posted as a no-gun zone or it's not. Can public places in Ohio pick and choose who they let carry in the building?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    776
    Do they have a sign posted? If not, why ask 'em anything?

    Now, I engaged our pastoral staff on the issue of security; Mas Ayoob sent me to some great advisors who really helped me develop my approach. Luckily, the church was already putting a plan together, and I got to be a part of it.

    Assuming they have a sign posted and you need to talk to them--don't go in with scare tactics right away, just voice your concerns and listen to their response. If they are really Hoplophobic, then it's critical that you present yourself (and BE) as a reasoned, concerned, and compassionate advocate of safety in the church.

    If they blow a gasket, find another church. Heck, Baptists like guns...LOL
    "What does Marcellus Wallace LOOK like?"

  5. #5
    Member Array 007BondJames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Walled Lake, Michigan
    Posts
    142

    In Michigan Churchs

    In Michigan you cannot carry in a church unless you get written permission from your pastor. I say written because word of mouth might not hold up in court. Get it on church letterhead. At my church we have the safest parking lot on any Sunday. Our ushers carry. We had a mens Shop, Supper, and Shoot night before Christmas and had about 50 men show up. We told them if you don't own a gun we will provide one for you. We are getting some new gun owners in our flock. We are Baptist. Praise the the Lord and pass the ammunition!!!!!!!
    Last edited by 007BondJames; January 18th, 2010 at 09:38 AM. Reason: Spelling

  6. #6
    Member Array slade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Pearland, TX
    Posts
    116
    As a pastor, I encourage those in the congregation who hold CHL's to carry. We are the safest people around: been checked out, trained, certified... the more the merrier/safer.

    In TX, a building has to have a 30.06 sign posted to prohibit carry.

    I like the motto: always carry, never tell.
    Kimber Pro Carry II; Night Sights
    S&W 340PD

  7. #7
    Member Array rico68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    146
    Quote Originally Posted by HK Dan View Post
    Do they have a sign posted? If not, why ask 'em anything?


    Exactly.

  8. #8
    New Member Array kemar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    North Central Ohio
    Posts
    9

    Ohio law

    Quote Originally Posted by rico68 View Post
    How does Ohio law read? Either the building is posted as a no-gun zone or it's not. Can public places in Ohio pick and choose who they let carry in the building?
    According to Ohio law, a church is a CPZ by default unless authorized.

    A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places: ..... (6) Any church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship, unless the church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship posts or permits otherwise

    That's what I'm trying to do - talk in a non-scary way to see about allowing more than just one person to carry. I'm planning on talking to one of the "concerned" elders tomorrow or soon.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    TEXAS
    Posts
    4,159
    In our church many have their CHL and carry at church.

    The Pastor carries in every service and encourages members to get their Chl and carry.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien

  10. #10
    Member Array rico68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    146
    Quote Originally Posted by kemar View Post
    According to Ohio law, a church is a CPZ by default unless authorized.

    A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places: ..... (6) Any church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship, unless the church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship posts or permits otherwise

    That's what I'm trying to do - talk in a non-scary way to see about allowing more than just one person to carry. I'm planning on talking to one of the "concerned" elders tomorrow or soon.
    Wow. That's unfortunate. I'd have real problems with a church council deciding someone is more trustworthy with their CCW than I am. Seems they need to have a set policy. Either they respect Ohio's CCW holders en masse, or they don't. But picking and choosing is not cool. What would they base their decision on? They have no ability to run background checks, they aren't likely to require a proficiency test, etc. I'd be pretty twisted if they want to pursue a pick and choose policy. If they had a flat no-guns policy, I could live with that (I wouldn't agree with it, but I'd understand it). Pick and choose, no way.

    I guess that's how I'd angle my case.


    Edit to add: The church's mission is to preach and save souls. The state's job is to determine who can and who can't carry CCW. The church needs to set one global policy and live with it. Deciding who can and who cannot carry CCW is not part of the church's mission. You'd think they would want to focus on more important issues.

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array GunGeezer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,249
    The fact remains that most mass killings occurred in gun free zones, eg. schools, post offices, military bases, etc. When will people get it through their thick , liberal, skulls that BG's don't obey the laws. They commit crimes of opportunity, and where better than places where law abiding citizens can't carry? Doh!

  12. #12
    Member Array rico68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    146
    Quote Originally Posted by GunGeezer View Post
    The fact remains that most mass killings occurred in gun free zones, eg. schools, post offices, military bases, etc. When will people get it through their thick , liberal, skulls that BG's don't obey the laws. They commit crimes of opportunity, and where better than places where law abiding citizens can't carry? Doh!
    I'm always amazed at peoples' inability to understand that simple concept.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bay City
    Posts
    2,286
    Quote Originally Posted by rico68 View Post
    Wow. That's unfortunate. I'd have real problems with a church council deciding someone is more trustworthy with their CCW than I am. Seems they need to have a set policy. Either they respect Ohio's CCW holders en masse, or they don't. But picking and choosing is not cool. What would they base their decision on? They have no ability to run background checks, they aren't likely to require a proficiency test, etc. I'd be pretty twisted if they want to pursue a pick and choose policy. If they had a flat no-guns policy, I could live with that (I wouldn't agree with it, but I'd understand it). Pick and choose, no way.

    I guess that's how I'd angle my case.

    .
    I would assume they do not want to post an "ALL CPL Holders Welcome" sign since they do not know who might be visting. But since they are giving some members the approval to carry I would think that the original poster might have a chance, provided the church leaders feel he is stable and trustworthy and uses common sense.

    It sounds like in Ohio the law says the church can post to allow all or no concealed carry. I don't even know then in that case if a written note from the church would hold up in court if the church was posted no carry. The law doesn't seem to cover that.

    One another note, I know that there are those that feel that the church isn't qualified to determine who is safe to carry there and who isn't . The point is it appears thats the way Ohio law is set up. It's simular here in Michigan, although maybe better spelled out, in that we can carry in church, provided we have permission from the authority in charge. It is by default granted on an individual case by case bases.

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    1,414
    First, listen to the advice you've received. Don't go in and throw up all over them with all of the links you've provided here. It will overload them and you will lose them FAST.

    If you want a more biblical perspective, check my blog (link in sig) and there are several entries about "Christianity and Self Defense." Those provide a pretty good biblical basis for allowing defense of self and others in church. (if I do say so my very own self...humility has always been the greatest of my many qualities:P)

    Then seek understanding and dialog. Spend the time to really let the church board understand the issue and get comfortable with your approach. The long term dividends are worth the short term pain.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array C9H13NO3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,513
    My church has 3 cops, and myself that carry. One of the cops carries openly, the others concealed. I've actually had people approach me and tell me they feel safer at church with us carrying.
    -Ryan

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Do you carry at Church?
    By MP45CDE in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 214
    Last Post: February 6th, 2013, 01:50 AM
  2. Carry to church???
    By portable75 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 101
    Last Post: February 4th, 2013, 11:52 AM
  3. Carry in Church
    By Big Will in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 95
    Last Post: June 4th, 2010, 03:32 PM
  4. Why I believe in Church Carry
    By preachertim in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: November 23rd, 2008, 09:05 PM
  5. Carry in Church-again? - Missouri Church Shooting
    By miklcolt45 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: August 21st, 2007, 05:37 PM

Search tags for this page

arguments for concealed carry in churches
,
california churches giving ccw
,
ccw florida school is a church
,
ccw in church florida
,
ccw in ct churches
,
church ccw ohio
,
ct laws for ccw at church
,
first baptist church of arnold ccw classes
,
nj ccw preacher
,

ohio ccw church

,

ohio ccw in church

,
rhode island ccw qualification
Click on a term to search for related topics.