When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses.... - Page 5

When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses....

This is a discussion on When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses.... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It is indeed trespassing....a law completely enforceable if you are caught & dont leave. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but are you trying to say that ...

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Thread: When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses....

  1. #61
    Member Array 3dfxMM's Avatar
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    It is indeed trespassing....a law completely enforceable if you are caught & dont leave.
    Perhaps I misunderstood you, but are you trying to say that if a business has some "no guns" sign up other than the 30.06 or 51%, that it is trespassing to carry into that business? It isn't until the owner/manager either orally informs you or asks you to leave for some other reason. The law is pretty clear about what a business has to do as far as notification.


  2. #62
    Member Array drjavelina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3dfxMM View Post
    Perhaps I misunderstood you, but are you trying to say that if a business has some "no guns" sign up other than the 30.06 or 51%, that it is trespassing to carry into that business? It isn't until the owner/manager either orally informs you or asks you to leave for some other reason. The law is pretty clear about what a business has to do as far as notification.
    I agree with you 3dfxMM...If the sign does not meet these exact requirements, IT IS NOT ENFORCEABLE.

    This is taken directly from Texas law:

    Regulatory Licensing Service
    Concealed Handgun Licensing Bureau

    PROHIBITING HANDGUNS IN A BUSINESS OR OTHER ENTITY


    In order to provide notice that entry on property by a license holder with a concealed handgun is forbidden, Penal Code Section 30.06(c)(3)(A) requires that a written communication contain the following language:

    "PURSUANT TO SECTION 30.06, PENAL CODE (TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF A LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN) A PERSON LICENSED UNDER SUBCHAPTER H, CHAPTER 411, GOVERNMENT CODE (CONCEALED HANDGUN LAW), MAY NOT ENTER THIS PROPERTY WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN."

    Penal Code Section 30.06(c)(3)(B) further states that a sign must meet the following requirements:

    includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
    appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
    is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

    Just having a sign that says no guns allowed is not enforceable under current Texas law.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

  3. #63
    Member Array OlJim's Avatar
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    For those of you who say you disregard the "No Firearms Allowed" signs, would you also disregard the "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service" or "No Animals except Service Animals" signs. How about a "NO Hunting" or "No Trespassing" sign? How about "Not an exit or "Stop"?
    Do you disregard all signs or do you pick and choose? It's not a question of legality it's a question of common courtesy.




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  4. #64
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlJim View Post
    For those of you who say you disregard the "No Firearms Allowed" signs, would you also disregard the "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service" or "No Animals except Service Animals" signs. How about a "NO Hunting" or "No Trespassing" sign? How about "Not an exit or "Stop"?
    Do you disregard all signs or do you pick and choose? It's not a question of legality it's a question of common courtesy.




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    Nice try. Apples and Oranges.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  5. #65
    Senior Member Array gdm320's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sniper58 View Post
    I'm right there too. If the sign is improper, I ignore it. If it's legal and I must enter, I disarm. If it's properly posted and I have choices, I don't enter. The marketplace offers alternatives and I'll patronize businesses who want my money.
    +1, same here.
    "Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death." -- General Omar Bradley

  6. #66
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoms View Post
    I don't see it that way. Any business owner that would post such a sign is trying to trample on my 2A rights. A business is a public place. It's no different than if they put up a sign that said no blacks, no women or no elderly.

    Now a person's private residence, they have every right to decide what's allowed/not allowed and if you want to visit that private residence, you should respect their wishes.
    i was reading all the posts until i got here and it stopped me dead in my tracks...

    a business is not a public place...erase that thought...it is a private place that allows the public to enter and has the right to limit who and what enters its space...other than with regards to protected classes...which a conceald carry license holder is not a part of...it also reserves the right to ask a party to leave if the party does not obey its rules...otherwise it has legal action against that party...

    you...by the same token have the right to not use that private business as you choose...but you dont have the right to shove your 2a rights down the owners throat...until you understand that you are doing more harm to 2a rights than good...contrary to your belief...

    you can poop on the floor in your own home if you like...i wouldnt recommend it in someone elses...and expect them to respect it...

    try it with me....respect...

  7. #67
    New Member Array M1911a1lvr's Avatar
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    In Vermont you can carry anywhere except for Fed, State and municipal buildings. Most banks you can carry in but not Fed/State Credit Unions. Here in Vermont all businesses are considered private property, So an owner can post it as no firearms allowed. Now when they do this, Every Exit and Entrance has to be marked properly for that to apply. Even if you do enter and disregard the sign. All they can do is ask you to leave, although they can have the Police issue you a trespass violation which will prevent you from coming back to that establishment. Now I generally follow all the rules and use common sense about how and when I carry. I don't go looking for trouble and try to have friendly discussions with business owners when they do find out that i am carrying in there place of business.

  8. #68
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    a business is not a public place...erase that thought...it is a private place that allows the public to enter and has the right to limit who and what enters its space...
    Just a thought here. Lets take that statement and add a twist to it and see how/if it stands on it's own merits.

    What if the owner of a business was to post a "No Blacks allowed, Whites only" sign. Isn't he guilty of discrimination, isn't he ethically and morally wrong. The word discrimination can be associated and applied to a host of situations many of which are the same if taken at face value, but inherently different upon closer inspection.

    IMO, that the signage placed and displayed by businesses and is not recognized by the state and therefore not enforceable due to how it's written. The "NO WEAPONS" signage itself is a form of discrimination against the law abiding citizens that lawfully carry concealed weapons. The clear answer to the problem is a simple one. Place a "No Trespassing" sign on the door and at that point anyone caught entering the place can be arrested on the spot. The sales are gonna suck but sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  9. #69
    Member Array Phantoms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Goodness, do you hear yourself? It is indeed trespassing....a law completely enforceable if you are caught & dont leave. The fact that you conceal the weapon only means that you are able to hide the fact you are doing so.
    Unless you reside in a state that has a sign law, then no law is broken whatsoever. You are not trespassing if you ignore a meaningless sign. You have broken no law at all. It doesn't matter if you are concealed carry or open carry (as long as you are carrying legally). The only way trespassing comes into play is if a business asks you to leave the premises and you refuse. If a business has a sign posted in states where there's no sign law and you open carry into the business (as long as OC is legal and you are not breaking any other carry laws) and no one inside the business asks you to leave, you have broken no laws.

    Please....do what you want but dont deny it and place your choices above the property owners'. It's disrespectful.

    I make no attempt to stand taller...I'm not the one snickering and pretending I dont see signs...or declaring my rights more important than someone elses...as many here in this thread do.
    If it's concealed carry (as that's what this particular forum is for), then I don't see how it's disrespectful of the owners wishes. No one should ever know unless, God forbid, you have to protect a life. A person who hopes someone will notice they carry or points it out, is not concealed carrying in my opinion.

    I consider it disrespectful to post such a sign in the first place to try and tell law abiding citizens what they can and can't do in public. As far as disrespecting an owner that posts such a sign, I do not understand how you feel that way. As a business owner, it is your responsibility to accept what the laws of your state and country are and follow them. In states where signs hold no legal weight, you are infringing on law abiding citizens when you post such a sign. In fact, if you ask someone to leave over legally carrying (and that is the only reason you ask) you may even be breaking a law. Businesses have been sued and lost for violating patrons rights in the past over other things. Just because no one has challenged a business over being asked to leave for legally carrying, doesn't mean it's not against the law in the strictest sense.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    I think the only place I have seen a sign up here in NH is on the doors of the local malls. However, in NH those signs have no force of law behind them. Like many have mentioned, it's up to you to decide what you would like to do if you're faced with that scenario. In another state where signage is enforcable by law then your choices are somewhat more laid out for you.

    If you have to disarm or would rather disarm, there are plenty of choices for the CCW'er out there as far as car vaults, safes, etc that you can look into. That would be the route I would favor if I had to disarm for whatever reason.
    Firefighter/EMT
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  11. #71
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoms View Post
    Unless you reside in a state that has a sign law, then no law is broken whatsoever. You are not trespassing if you ignore a meaningless sign. You have broken no law at all. It doesn't matter if you are concealed carry or open carry (as long as you are carrying legally). The only way trespassing comes into play is if a business asks you to leave the premises and you refuse. If a business has a sign posted in states where there's no sign law and you open carry into the business (as long as OC is legal and you are not breaking any other carry laws) and no one inside the business asks you to leave, you have broken no laws.

    If it's concealed carry (as that's what this particular forum is for), then I don't see how it's disrespectful of the owners wishes. No one should ever know unless, God forbid, you have to protect a life. A person who hopes someone will notice they carry or points it out, is not concealed carrying in my opinion.

    I consider it disrespectful to post such a sign in the first place to try and tell law abiding citizens what they can and can't do in public. As far as disrespecting an owner that posts such a sign, I do not understand how you feel that way. As a business owner, it is your responsibility to accept what the laws of your state and country are and follow them. In states where signs hold no legal weight, you are infringing on law abiding citizens when you post such a sign. In fact, if you ask someone to leave over legally carrying (and that is the only reason you ask) you may even be breaking a law. Businesses have been sued and lost for violating patrons rights in the past over other things. Just because no one has challenged a business over being asked to leave for legally carrying, doesn't mean it's not against the law in the strictest sense.

    Thank you. You articulate my point quite well.

    And it's 'not' a public place. The business owner can lock the door and keep you and the rest of the public out at any time. The sidewalk outside the business is a public place.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #72
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3dfxMM View Post
    Perhaps I misunderstood you, but are you trying to say that if a business has some "no guns" sign up other than the 30.06 or 51%, that it is trespassing to carry into that business? It isn't until the owner/manager either orally informs you or asks you to leave for some other reason. The law is pretty clear about what a business has to do as far as notification.

    I understand the distinction. However, it also translates into: I'm not breaking the law/rules unless I get caught.

    I understand the letter of the law. I also see the hypocrisy.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #73
    Member Array 3dfxMM's Avatar
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    No it isn't. There is no law being broken.

  14. #74
    Member Array BAGMAN's Avatar
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    When I see a No Carry sign, I walk right on in with my concealed weapon. In the remote possibility that I am "outed" and asked to leave, I will do so in an orderly manner.
    "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli" Clemenza

  15. #75
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    Since such gun-circle-slash-gun-ban signs are on every other door around Dayton, Ohio, they in effect negate our legal CCW laws, making you leave your guns inside your vehicles. Of course, if we remember these places and do daily or nightly routines, I guess that we can carry and conceal when appropriate. I have been too lazy to strain my brain to do so, so far. It is such a hassle outside the castle! Of course, we sometimes forget where we are and forget to leave them in the car.

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