When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses....

This is a discussion on When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses.... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by bladenbullet a business is not a public place...erase that thought... it is a private place that allows the public to enter and ...

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Thread: When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses....

  1. #91
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    a business is not a public place...erase that thought...it is a private place that allows the public to enter and has the right to limit who and what enters its space...other than with regards to protected classes...which a conceald carry license holder is not a part of...it also reserves the right to ask a party to leave if the party does not obey its rules...otherwise it has legal action against that party...

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    Just a thought here. Lets take that statement and add a twist to it and see how/if it stands on it's own merits.

    What if the owner of a business was to post a "No Blacks allowed, Whites only" sign. Isn't he guilty of discrimination, isn't he ethically and morally wrong. The word discrimination can be associated and applied to a host of situations many of which are the same if taken at face value, but inherently different upon closer inspection.

    IMO, that the signage placed and displayed by businesses and is not recognized by the state and therefore not enforceable due to how it's written. The "NO WEAPONS" signage itself is a form of discrimination against the law abiding citizens that lawfully carry concealed weapons. The clear answer to the problem is a simple one. Place a "No Trespassing" sign on the door and at that point anyone caught entering the place can be arrested on the spot. The sales are gonna suck but sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too.
    i would love to play your game if it didnt take my comments out of context...please read the bolded print and try again...

    my comments were meant to correct the comments of another who believes his rights are trampled by the signs...they are not...it is not unreasonable to request no firearms in your home or place of business...it is unreasonable to critisize someone for doing so..it is their choice...you do not have to patronize the business and it is not a necessity that you do so...

    i am not against someone carrying into a business that has a no firearms sign....if they understand that they may be asked to leave if discovered...dont mistake my comments as anything against that...

    i am against people deciding that the wishes of others on their own property...within the law...are unjust...and trying to use the constitution...which gives them those rights...to say the property owners are wrong...just because the law allows you to carry a gun (incidentally...it isnt a birthright)...it doesnt mean you get to decide where you carry it against the wishes of people on their own property...


    if i need to repeat it slowly i will...just ask...

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  3. #92
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    A little known fact is that discrimination is generally legal contrary to conventional wisdom which has grossly distorted the meaning of the concept. A property owner has the first amendment right of freedom of association to exclude anybody for any reason from his property with exactly one caveat:

    Civil rights laws have made some specific well defined forms of discrimination illegal in businesses open to the public. If a form of discrimination is not explicitly listed it is still legal.

    A business owner can exclude you from a restaurant if you don't dress appropriately. A club owner can do the same. If they don't want guns they have the absolute right to exclude you and your so-called second amendment rights will not override their explicit first amendment rights.

    Signage and trespassing laws have not been well tested in court. A sign is a notice of condition of entry to the property. You are trespassing the instant you enter against the signage. There might not be any legal penalty involved until someone orally asks you to leave but you have still violated conditions of entry.

    If you choose to ignore trespassing signage and feel you can get away with it that is a moral/ethical personal choice of convenience. Don't pretend any higher purpose.

  4. #93
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    A little known fact is that discrimination is generally legal contrary to conventional wisdom which has grossly distorted the meaning of the concept. A property owner has the first amendment right of freedom of association to exclude anybody for any reason from his property with exactly one caveat:

    Civil rights laws have made some specific well defined forms of discrimination illegal in businesses open to the public. If a form of discrimination is not explicitly listed it is still legal.

    A business owner can exclude you from a restaurant if you don't dress appropriately. A club owner can do the same. If they don't want guns they have the absolute right to exclude you and your so-called second amendment rights will not override their explicit first amendment rights.

    Signage and trespassing laws have not been well tested in court. A sign is a notice of condition of entry to the property. You are trespassing the instant you enter against the signage. There might not be any legal penalty involved until someone orally asks you to leave but you have still violated conditions of entry.

    If you choose to ignore trespassing signage and feel you can get away with it that is a moral/ethical personal choice of convenience. Don't pretend any higher purpose.
    well stated...

  5. #94
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Property owners' rights have limits.

    For example, the owner of a business may not say "No wheelchairs" or "No Whites". Why not? Because the law of the land does not give them the power to do so, or in some cases expressly forbids it.

    Now in Florida, the state has licensed me to carry a firearm concealed on or about my person. The law in Florida which permits me to do so also does not provide any force of law to a "no firearms" sign. In fact, the law excludes such postings by leaving them off the prohibited places list.

    So the law has limited the property owner's rights, and when I exercise my right to carry a firearm on my person as defined under the law I am not infringing the property owner's rights when I do so, since the state has already abrogated that "right".

    Matt
    as long as you understand that if asked to leave by that property owner you must leave or you are in violation of the law...

  6. #95
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    This whole situation is whay I carry small. My Beretta 21a may not have much punch but I don't even give these signs any thought at all. If I ever needed to use my weapon then I would be avoiding death or serious injury, so I would not be worried about carrying when the sign said not to do so.
    If you are going to carry concealed, it should be, for all intents and purposes, virtually undectable without a body search. Then just ignore these signs.

  7. #96
    New Member Array BoxCar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cammo girl View Post
    Do you bring in ammo clips, or must they be removed as well?

    And, what do you do with the firearm? Do you keep a lockbox in your truck/car, put it in the trunk, hide under seat, etc. Looking for clever ideas.

    Or, can you just unload it? Not really looking for legal advice, just wondering how people approach this issue.

    (yes I am new to cc, thanks for the help)
    If it someplace that I must go I just lock my pistol in a spare holder I keep in the car for just that purpose. I normaly keep the extra ammo where it is; it is not really effective without the pistol.
    If there are other places that I can go that do not post such (IMHO) ignorant signs I spend my money there... I do not see many no gun sings here in TX thank GOD.
    He has put a new song in my heart!!

    Exodus 15:2
    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God,
    and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

  8. #97
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Completely different, as all the examples you set involve things readily seen or known by others. Anyone can see you have an animal with you (assuming it isn't a concealed mouse or the like) or can see you are hunting or entering onto a piece of land, etc.

    A concealed firearm is not, by definition, readily seen by others, and the owner of the business would have to intrude into your privacy to determine it's presence. Merely entering into an open business conveys no such right to the business owner.
    Agreed. ^^

    Further as related to all of such signs including the 'no shirt/shoes' no service types we all as adults know, or should know, that there is factor of intent associated. It is not often meant as in a literal sense.

    For example if a person walked into their local McDonalds wearing socks, with no shoes, they wouldnot be denied service.
    As well anyone who has ever been to a beach or resort area in season knows that very commonly people walk around with no shirt (males) and/or in a top that is not a shirt such as women in bikini tops. They have no trouble and get no grief from anyone regardless of what some sign might state.

    The intent of the no weapons/no guns signs are as toward criminals and/or criminal behavior.
    Same as how the no animals signs are intended toward pets and people walking around with birds or lizards perched on a shoulder...As rather than say service animals or those people who walk around with small dogs and cats in cage purses.

    If you carry a gun and are not a criminal by intent or behavior and your gun is concealed, or open carry as by legal option, then you are not among those of the intent toward said notices.
    Not that the people who are within the notices intent would pay any more mind to it than anyone else.

    Those signs are stupid. Might as well say 'No Crime Zone' or 'No Shoplifting'....Which would really put folk on notice.



    Everything is a weapon, including shoes and per the TSA lighters and containers of liquid goop as commonly found in pockets, purses and gel shoe inserts.
    As well nothing is a weapon until it is actually weaponized as by action and intent by a human.

    Following said no weapons type signs to the letter (without adult thinking application of intent) most nobody would be ale to or allowed to enter any store to buy anything, muchless carry purchases around the store with them as freely in hand or at access to hand.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #98
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Agreed. ^^


    If you carry a gun and are not a criminal by intent or behavior and your gun is concealed, or open carry as by legal option, then you are not among those of the intent toward said notices.
    Not that the people who are within the notices intent would pay any more mind to it than anyone else.

    Those signs are stupid. Might as well say 'No Crime Zone' or 'No Shoplifting'....Which would really put folk on notice.



    - Janq
    first off....i am a little disappointed janq...youre off your game a bit here....i would have expected no less than a thousand words on the subject from you...although as usual you were articulate and insightful...i'm gonna guess you were pressed for time and give you the benefit of the doubt...

    the only disagreement i have is that the signs are meant for criminal intent...in many instances company policies are meant as a reflection of the owners/operators specific set of principles and/or as previously stated related to a requirement that saves the business money on insurance or such so a requirement...some feel there is an inherent safety available if guns are not allowed...just like the popular comic that shows 2 armed criminals standing outside of a no guns posted business saying "what are we gonna do now?"...we know better but it isnt our decision and it seems no level of education is going to sway some people otherwise...

    are the signs silly?...not to the people who put them up...and in the event someone decides to carry regardless of the signs...thats a personal decision they make...as long as they know that they are required...depending on the laws of their state...to leave if discovered and asked to...

    the interesting thing to me is that the vast majority of the people who make a big deal about the signs are the same ones who state that they will not spend their money in a store that is not gun friendly...therefore...my expectation is that they really shouldnt patronize them by entering...as entering is a form of advertisment for the facility regardless of whether a purchase was made or not....but again...thats a personal choice...

  10. #99
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    We are not disagreeing bnb, 'safety' as by discouragement of criminal intent.

    Without criminal intent by the carrier guns are of no harm to anyone at all and will not harm a soul. Anecdotal proof of that abounds.

    Store owners singular and insurance carriers broadly both have the same base focus and thought, fear/concern for crime and criminal intent.
    If a cop walks in to said store or for that matter anyone wearing a uniform with badge while carrying openly they will not be denied service nor asked to leave. Even as said signs are in place. Why? Because there is no concern for that persons intent as by assumption, even as they may clearly have a gun/weapon on their person.

    Agreed as well in regard to making a big deal about them, as again specifically looking toward and at intent.
    The thought for these signs are to put criminals and those with criminal intent on notice that we (store/store owner/customers) do not wish to be service, support or be involved amongst criminal shenanigans.
    No different in intent and focus than those 'Neighborhood Watch' signs we all have seen around...Or the 'Drug Free Zone' signs at every school in the US and many community playgrounds.
    They don't mean literally any and all drugs such as Tylenol or the Xanax one might have in their purse as per lawful doctor prescription. Nor do they mean if you don't live here then you can't come here to this area/neighborhood.

    The focus is a toward crime, criminals and criminal intent.
    If you aren't a criminal nor have criminal intent, then keep on steppin' and go about your life and living.

    - Janq

    P.S. - Notable exception would of course be among states that have so called '30.06' laws that as by statute and/or local ordinance expressly disallow carry of any weapon (!) or specific arms by nomenclature as within or about areas. And same statutes/ordinances that give real legal teeth to the signs as again specific to general possession of specific stated class of weapon/arms without regard to intent be it criminal or otherwise as by the possessor. An example of the latter includes the federal laws that ban and restrict carry of weaponry into USPS facilitys as well as on federal grounds and buildings as in general.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #100
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    actually...we are disagreeing...

    a police officer is perceived as a highly trained individual who is safety conscious and whose duty is to protect and serve...his training means to many that he will use his gun safely and only in the event it is needed per specific criteria he is trained to know...

    a concealed carry license holder is not perceived as a highly trained individual and thus more prone to accidental or careless handling of a firearm and endangerment to others as a result...

    therefore...it is perceived by many that it is not in the best interest to allow guns...other than those carried by highly trained and skilled law enforcement officers...into their businesses...in disney's case even law enforcement officers are required to leave firearms out of the facilities...

    again....a decision by the owners/operators of the business...some people just think guns are dangerous...regardless of criminal intent or not....

    i understand your point but believe it is only one of the reasons guns are not allowed in some places....there are a numbe r of reasons different people dont like guns...for some its general safety...for others its the risk of crime...i'm sure thinking long enough i could come up with a few more including possible religious beliefs or family upbringing...thats their personal choice....

  12. #101
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    But a concealed carry license holder is by definition 'concealed'.

    The store owner, insurance underwriter and fellow shoppers haven't the first clue whether or not the person carrying and licensed/permitted to do so is armed in any way or not.
    As well as to perception, we all know that in real life perception is everything _but_ in kind perception often times is not an accurate reflection of truth.
    Not just police officers wear guns outward as in uniform with a badge but so do security guards and even some mall cops. I have seen this first person standing in line with a Guarda Company security guard in full uniform, no badge though, while carrying openly a holstered revolver as at my local Whole Foods. Nobody blinked an eye and he was not refused service...Even as at the front door sign there is a no guns allowed sticker and statement. Myself I was armed with a gun and a knife as well as OC/CS. Concealed.
    Who was the person more or less trained, as by fact...and as by perception? How can anyone know with any surety?
    They can't. Regardless of perception.

    Perception is what drives these people (store owners) and businesses to post these type signs.
    Perception that in doing so criminals with criminal intent will not walk into their building/store/area and commit crimes. Exact same as the 'No Shoplifting' signs commonly seen at stores as well.

    Yes some people do believe guns are dangerous, period. A whole mess of people do. Which is fine and their own prerogative.
    But interestingly those thoughts as by perception wash away as when they see same guns as held by persons who they in their own mind think they know has no criminal intent. Such as open carry cops and security guards et. al.
    Do and have cops and security guard types committed crimes as while carrying or even using a gun? Of course. It's not hard to find examples of as much either.
    At the end of the day as related specifically to these signs and stores the focus of perception and intent remains to be as toward crime and criminal intent.
    They are not a reflection of ones personal beliefs and perceptions singular...Same as the no shirts/shoes are a reflection of personal mores or ideas of improper display of the body or hygiene & personal cleanliness.

    What goes unseen is then by perception of reality not there.
    Thus as to guns and concealed carry in specific by perception and with that fact of store owner/management reality, the gun is not there and by that no crime nor criminal intent is existent.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #102
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    i do agree with that...concealed is concealed...that is the personal choice a carry license holder makes entering a business that posts no firearms...

    we must allow for lack of knowledge on the owner/operators part regarding their perception of safety and firearms...their beliefs are their beliefs and they are entitled to them just as you and i are entitled to ours...and they have the right to post as they wish within the law on their property....

    all i am saying is that their choice to post should be respected regardless of how anyone feels about it...

  14. #103
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I don't disagree with you as regard to respect, and respecting the views/perceptions/wishes of folk who post these type signs.

    For example one of the two gun shops I happen to visit has same type sign out front.
    I have walked in there numerous times to buy a gun & associated gear and to bring guns in for review and install of parts.
    You cannot at all miss the placard as it's huge (like the santa example above) and is at face height on the front door.

    Yet I walk right through as do many others with a gun in hand; In my case as cased, locked and within all state laws as related to storage and transport properly secured.
    Often times he even knows ahead of time I'm coming and therefor knows I am walking in with a gun.
    Not once has he said a word tome edgewise.

    Also he knows that I carry.
    We've talked about it as related to the guns I've brought him to tech and/or repair worn parts on.
    He knows I'm trained as a shooter and instruct as well. He's seen me in my issue instructor garb with badges and we've talked about that too.

    Not once though has he ever seen me carrying a firearm as on my person loaded.

    Live and by perception to many to be a 'weapon'.
    Why? Because I am _always_ concealed, at his store.

    Thus by perception and silly game he is comfortable with me, I am comfortable being in his store and those criminals with criminal intent are put on notice at the door that no 'weapons' are allowed.
    I should mention the store owner is also a deputy county sherriff and is locally a major player among the state NRA political scene.
    Yet he too has this same generally viewed as 'anti-gun' sticker at the front door of his own establishment.

    He does not disrespect me by doing so or having such a position as per perception.
    I do not disrespect him by doing as I do and have very often done which is walk right past his sign with 'weapons' (guns) openly carried in hand as well as on my person concealed.

    We both know each others deal and understand our views.
    Neither of us have criminal intent and we both have equal distaste and concern for criminals.

    He carrys concealed and has told me he does so. Further he teaches MA LTC courses at that toward civilians.
    We both are equally supportive of RKBA rights including right to carry in general and as toward specific conditions, including at his store...With the no weapons statement up front.

    Honest, to my mind there is nothing immoral about ignoring these signs as being a person _without criminal intent_ AND who is carrying concealed.
    As within the letter of applicable and enforceable federal, state and local laws.

    - Janq

    P.S. - Persons who open carry and ignore these signs without wearing a uniform or some sort of badge that by perception calms the hearts & minds of observers, those persons should with good reason expect to endure a talking to if not being asked to remove them self and at that be refused service.
    Morally they have made the choice to openly disregard the wishes/request of the establishment and by that overt choice of action it's reasonable to expect a reaction, equal and opposite.
    As the old sayings go; 'Out of sight out of mind' and 'If a tree falls in the woods but goes unseen and unheard, does it make a sound?'.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #104
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    i would love to play your game if it didnt take my comments out of context...please read the bolded print and try again...

    my comments were meant to correct the comments of another who believes his rights are trampled by the signs...they are not...it is not unreasonable to request no firearms in your home or place of business...it is unreasonable to critisize someone for doing so..it is their choice...you do not have to patronize the business and it is not a necessity that you do so...

    i am not against someone carrying into a business that has a no firearms sign....if they understand that they may be asked to leave if discovered...dont mistake my comments as anything against that...

    i am against people deciding that the wishes of others on their own property...within the law...are unjust...and trying to use the constitution...which gives them those rights...to say the property owners are wrong...just because the law allows you to carry a gun (incidentally...it isnt a birthright)...it doesnt mean you get to decide where you carry it against the wishes of people on their own property...


    if i need to repeat it slowly i will...just ask...
    You can speak as slow as you care, or need, I can wait on ya.

    A building lease is different than someone's home, i.e. you do not own the building you are leasing it. To carry into someone's home against their wishes is a different story. You can split hairs all you want but the fact is, it's not illegal and all your complaining about the fact wont change it. Not to mention the fact that, if you have ever broken any law in any capacity, you're no better than the rest of the folks that you are trying to condemn. So step down off your high horse and realize, your right to deny doesn't trump our right to defense.

    Oh and the reason you dissed the twist is because you can't find an acceptable reply. Again here's the post and see if you can revamp it to fit your your argument.
    Just a thought here. Lets take that statement and add a twist to it and see how/if it stands on it's own merits.

    What if the owner of a business was to post a "No Blacks allowed, Whites only" sign. Isn't he guilty of discrimination, isn't he ethically and morally wrong. The word discrimination can be associated and applied to a host of situations many of which are the same if taken at face value, but inherently different upon closer inspection.

    The "NO WEAPONS" signage itself is a form of discrimination against the law abiding citizens that lawfully carry concealed weapons.
    And by all means go as slow as you need to.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  16. #105
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Wow, this thread has gotten long.

    I guess I should have started reading it when it was only a couple of pages long.

    The answers to this are really pretty simple. Follow your state law. It really is that simple.

    For instance, as other have pointed out in Texas property owners will use a valid 30.06 sign at the entrance. I am not going to get into the 51% sign because they are required to post that if they meet those standards, there is not option for them. Anything else posted at the door is meaningless.

    Arkansas on the other hand uses less specific code sections and the property own simply has to put
    “carrying a handgun is prohibited”.
    and make it readable from 10 ft away by the entrance. However AR specifically says that you "must" inform the occupant of a private residence before you enter with your handgun. So even the argument that what they can't see won't hurt them doesn't hold water when it comes to private residences. But that is the law, that is what the state has decided.

    For those states like FL, MA or others that don't address signage on private property, it isn't an issue. If you enter the property with a gun and they have a gun buster sign or whatever you have done nothing wrong so there isn't an issue, your not breaking the law, your not doing anything your not supposed to be doing.

    Property owners do have rights. Each state has a specific set of laws addressing these rights when it come to firearms. If they don't have specific laws addressing signage, then there are other laws regarding treaspass that will come into play if the concealed weapon becomes visible and the property owner is made aware of it.

    Follow the laws of you state folks. I think that should have been covered in any training or information given when getting your CHL. And if you travel, then learn the laws of the state which you travel it. It is your responsibility to know the law.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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