When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses....

This is a discussion on When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses.... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by bladenbullet as long as you understand that if asked to leave by that property owner you must leave or you are in ...

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Thread: When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses....

  1. #106
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    Array MattInFla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    as long as you understand that if asked to leave by that property owner you must leave or you are in violation of the law...
    Absolutely.

    But the mere presence of the sign means nothing. If you are individually asked to leave, completely different.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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  3. #107
    Member Array glock45's Avatar
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    In FL, signs mean nothing unless you are asked to leave.
    So, I just don't let anybody know I'm carrying a G30 in a Smartcarry with 10 rounds of .45 230 gr. +P HSTs.

  4. #108
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    Oh and the reason you dissed the twist is because you can't find an acceptable reply. Again here's the post and see if you can revamp it to fit your your argument.

    And by all means go as slow as you need to.
    there is no acceptable reply when you are dealing with people who dont respect the wishes of others and dont care what those people think...and what a weak line...please...i know you are but what am i...surely you could do better than that....

    of course its discrimination..so is a no shoes, no shirt, no service sign...thats life and if people arent used to it or cant accept it they are going to go through life very disappointed because everyone tends to use it to some degree....just read the posts here about answering the door or how rudely people who may be harmless but are not desireable are treated...think about it and youll find you use it more frequently in your own life than you would care to admit to...

    the reason i dissed the twist is because it took my statement out of context...i was answering a cry of improper discrimination by stating that discrimination is only recognized legally for protected classes...the post i was referring to was treating themselves as a protected class because they feel their license to carry places them in one...

    regardless of whether you lease or own property you operate a business on it is your business and you are entitled to run it anyway you please within the law...i get a kick out of the legal eagles (pun intended-avatar) who decide whats right and wrong and use internet bravado to trample the opinions of others...

    i never said i didnt approve of carrying concealed in a posted business and have mentioned that fact many times..i did say that the business owner is entitled to their opinion of firearms and their right to post their business relative to them...whether you respect their opinion or not is not the issue...they are within their rights to do it....and if they discover you are carrying...depending on your state laws...they are within their rights to ask you to leave and if you do not you are in violation of the law...if guys get off knowing theyve walked through a posted business with a concealed firearm more power to them...but dont disrespect the owner for choosing to do so...

    it doesnt matter why they choose to do so either...discrimination, fear of criminal intent, safety, insurance premium break (and by the way...its up to them whether its worth it or not...not you), etc....it is their right to do so...dont use poor excuses to discredit them....

    and you still have the right to defense...just not with your gun...dont be short sighted...and please dont play the self righteous 'if youve ever broken the law" thing with me...i never said anyone was breaking the law...i was defending the owner/operators right to post and ask you to leave...preach to yourself son....i am not interested...(have fun using that line now)

  5. #109
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Absolutely.

    But the mere presence of the sign means nothing. If you are individually asked to leave, completely different.

    Matt
    and my posts support that...

  6. #110
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    To carry into someone's home against their wishes is a different story.
    please explain why its different...i'm curious...isnt concealed concealed and dont you have a right to defend yourself?....

  7. #111
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    A little known fact is that discrimination is generally legal contrary to conventional wisdom which has grossly distorted the meaning of the concept. A property owner has the first amendment right of freedom of association to exclude anybody for any reason from his property with exactly one caveat:

    Civil rights laws have made some specific well defined forms of discrimination illegal in businesses open to the public. If a form of discrimination is not explicitly listed it is still legal.

    A business owner can exclude you from a restaurant if you don't dress appropriately. A club owner can do the same. If they don't want guns they have the absolute right to exclude you and your so-called second amendment rights will not override their explicit first amendment rights.

    Signage and trespassing laws have not been well tested in court. A sign is a notice of condition of entry to the property. You are trespassing the instant you enter against the signage. There might not be any legal penalty involved until someone orally asks you to leave but you have still violated conditions of entry.

    If you choose to ignore trespassing signage and feel you can get away with it that is a moral/ethical personal choice of convenience. Don't pretend any higher purpose.
    We were not discussing 'No Trespassing' signs. Nobody here is advocating trespassing.

    As to business owners having the absolute right to exclude you and your guns... perhaps you are not aware that their means of excluding you requires that they ask you to leave (in most states). We have not agreed as a society to give them the right of exclusion by the posting of signs.

    They must take the time and effort to determine whom they wish to exclude. This is just how it works.

    But I repeat myself.

  8. #112
    Member Array louie19's Avatar
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    I face this problem in Virginia and the best way is to just lock it up in the car. Spare mags can go with you as I don't see anything against that.

    Here's the relevant law:
    The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.
    One really strange thing to watch out for too is that you're not allowed to even store a gun in your vehicle on a postal service parking lot, so if you're going to the post office, park on the street.

  9. #113
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    please explain why its different...i'm curious...isnt concealed concealed and dont you have a right to defend yourself?....

    Ahh, I'll let you work that one out on your own....
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  10. #114
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    of course...

  11. #115
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    i was defending the owner/operators right to post and ask you to leave...
    They don't have anymore right to deny access due to the firearm, then we the public have the right to ignore the policy. Basically one negates the other and that's all it is in states that don't enforce the "Kill at Will" signage. Besides, it's a friggin policy and you're defending a form of discrimination over the will of many, so save your belittling attempts for someone who gives a hoot pal, cause I'm not one of um. A few have stated the facts for the states that don't support the signage. Janq, Matt, stanislaskasava and a few others articulated it pretty well, but you and one or two others can seem to grasp the fact, that the state says your signs are full of crap and we'll only enforce a Trespassing charge if called out to the location . They too don't give a hoot about a business that's willing to discriminate against certain criteria just to allow entrance to a business that's opened to the public, and asking for money; Hence the (It's not against the law). SON! And yes, they're asking for money that's why they advertise, so don't even go there with the mantra; "You don't have to shop there, you could go somewhere else". Sure I can or could, but I choose to go where it's most convenient and I'll disregard the discriminating signage as I would if I was back in the day when one race of man would wrongfully discriminate against other. It was wrong then as it's wrong now, just a different set variables and arguments.

    This can go back and forth all day long and neither one of us will convince the other our stance is the best one, so I'll not respond to more babble on the subject. Incidentally, my first post in regards to your post wasn't meant as an insult, hence the "Just a thought" and "let's put a twist on it" some of the rest of it may have offended you, but it was not my intention. My use of the "SON" term is a friendly stab back at cha and I'm certainly willing to let that be it. FWIW





    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    preach to yourself son....i am not interested...(have fun using that line now)

    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  12. #116
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    i was defending the owner/operators right to post and ask you to leave...)

    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    They don't have anymore right to deny access due to the firearm, then we the public have the right to ignore the policy.

    sorry...they do...if they know you are carrying they can ask you to leave...if you do not you are trespassing...read my quote again...you already used it to support yourself yet obviously dont understand it...my entire point is that quote...they are withint their rights to post their business...but you cant seem to respect that fact...yet expect others to respect the fact that you have the right to carry...and as for ignoring the policy...you do have the right to do so...as i have mentioned...but they also have the right to enforce it...by asking you to leave...which you must comply with or be trespassing...sorry to be repititious but thats my whole point...

    Basically one negates the other and that's all it is in states that don't enforce the "Kill at Will" signage. Besides, it's a friggin policy and you're defending a form of discrimination over the will of many, so save your belittling attempts for someone who gives a hoot pal, cause I'm not one of um.

    you belittle yourself with your mindset and comments..and its obvious you dont give a hoot...its a long standing pattern in your posts...i know i cant get past that....read my quote again...you continue to misinterpret it...and dont pretend you dont do your own share of discriminating because youll only be lying to yourself...sound familiar?...

    A few have stated the facts for the states that don't support the signage. Janq, Matt, stanislaskasava and a few others articulated it pretty well, but you and one or two others can seem to grasp the fact, that the state says your signs are full of crap and we'll only enforce a Trespassing charge if called out to the location .

    thats actually exaclty what i have said several times...i never said they could keep you out of their stores with the signs...only that they were within their rights to post them....keep going...youre doing well...

    They too don't give a hoot about a business that's willing to discriminate against certain criteria just to allow entrance to a business that's opened to the public, and asking for money; Hence the (It's not against the law). SON!

    and where did i say it was against the law?...pop...yo are so hell bent on arguing the point that you havent actually read a thing i wrote..

    And yes, they're asking for money that's why they advertise, so don't even go there with the mantra; "You don't have to shop there, you could go somewhere else". Sure I can or could, but I choose to go where it's most convenient and I'll disregard the discriminating signage as I would if I was back in the day when one race of man would wrongfully discriminate against other. It was wrong then as it's wrong now, just a different set variables and arguments.

    and like ive said several times...you can disregard the signage ...thats your personal choice...you getting me confused with someone else or do you just like reading what you type that much?...

    This can go back and forth all day long and neither one of us will convince the other our stance is the best one, so I'll not respond to more babble on the subject. Incidentally, my first post in regards to your post wasn't meant as an insult, hence the "Just a thought" and "let's put a twist on it" some of the rest of it may have offended you, but it was not my intention. My use of the "SON" term is a friendly stab back at cha and I'm certainly willing to let that be it. FWIW

    to clarify...and i have brought it up in the past....you cannot offend me here and if you knew me you would be well aware it is difficult to offend me at all...this is a mental excersize for me and i welcome it as a great way to spend a little time with some people with similar interests...

    and i can see where it might be difficult to agree with me as you have made it painstakingly obvious that you dont understand my stance...

  13. #117
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    r i g h t.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  14. #118
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post


    r i g h t.
    it is kinda funny isnt it?...and thanks for slowing it down for me...

  15. #119
    Member Array Phantoms's Avatar
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    Because of this thread I've changed my views a little and try to take into account other people's and businesses views more. I understand that Business owners have opinions and wishes. I think respect should be given to any business that you visit. But I took this discussion only as it relates to CC issue because of the forum it's posted in.

    A few clarifications on some of my statements...

    2A rights do come into play when a state passes a sign law. By doing so, the government is trying to infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms. They already do such (federal buildings, government buildings etc.), but it doesn't make it anymore right.
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    I do not feel any disrespect is given if you are legally carrying concealed and enter a business that post a sign. I feel a owner has no reason to tell me what I wear under my clothing (whether it's a firearm, a medical device or underwear) as long as I'm following the law. If they do try, then I feel the only disrespect is coming from the owner to the customer.

    I will not necessarily stop going to a business that posts such a sign. I will try contacting them by email or mail and stating how I feel and if they are willing to change their policy. If they state they don't care how I feel and don't carry in our store even if you are concealed, I will no longer give them my business and I will posts my gripes about them on the net just as if they had any other policy I didn't agree with. If they are understanding but will not remove or modify the sign I will continue shopping there concealed (I may still voice my gripes about them on the net though).

    The inside of most businesses are public places. The business itself might be private, but patrons are considered the public. Any public type laws can be applied inside most business unless law (or sometimes common sense) grants them an exception. You can be arrested for running around naked inside a store (public indecency),etc.

    Now as often happens now days, the literal meaning of things is talked/posted about and used to fit what ever view a side has (I'm very guilty of this as are most). In fact, anti-gun rights people have argued (and still do) that the 2A was meant for military and militias, even though militias as we know them today did not even exist then. Everyone knows what the intent the Amendment was, they just twist the meaning of the words to fit their views or their agendas. Internet discussions are no different. You asks a clear cut question on what something means, and you'll get 50 different answers. When it's not so clear cut, you'll get many more. And each could technically be right depending on how it was asked or the context they took it in.

    I'm hard headed by nature and this compounds the problem. I'm also understanding and after a couple days of thinking about something usually see it from more views than just my own. I hope most are. It doesn't mean you have to change your opinions (though occasionally you may adapt them somewhat), just that you understand others views of an issue.

  16. #120
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    Am I wrong in thinking that this does not apply to this discussion? The Constitution was written to restrict the Federal Government not what an individual might do.

    Michael

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