When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses....

This is a discussion on When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses.... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mlr1m Am I wrong in thinking that this does not apply to this discussion? The Constitution was written to restrict the Federal ...

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Thread: When you see the sign "no firearms" on businesses....

  1. #121
    Member Array Phantoms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Am I wrong in thinking that this does not apply to this discussion? The Constitution was written to restrict the Federal Government not what an individual might do.

    Michael
    You left this part out that was right above it:
    2A rights do come into play when a state passes a sign law. By doing so, the government is trying to infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms. They already do such (federal buildings, government buildings etc.), but it doesn't make it anymore right.

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  3. #122
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoms View Post
    You left this part out that was right above it:
    2A rights do come into play when a state passes a sign law. By doing so, the government is trying to infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms. They already do such (federal buildings, government buildings etc.), but it doesn't make it anymore right.
    Very true. By making the signs a part of the law a person could argue that the state is trying to infringe on my rights.

    Personally I see no reason for anything mentioning signs to have been put in the concealed carry law. They should just have passed a law stating that concealed carry is legal. Then if an individual business owner didn't want weapons in his business he could make it clear to patrons by posting a sign or some other means if he chose to.

    Michael

  4. #123
    Member Array Alf87's Avatar
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    To answer the original post, I carry everywhere here in Colorado regardless of signs because they don't mean anything here. Our statute is pretty clear where you can't carry. However, if asked to leave a place because I've somehow blown my concealed cover then that's my darn fault.

    My CCW instructor (an active LEO) told us that signs dont matter and we can legally carry anywhere other than where statute prohibits us. Of course, he said if we're asked to leave then we must do so immediately or we could be charged with trepassing. LE around here is pretty aware of the concealed laws and are very supportive of CCW permit holders.

    I have no worries carrying anywhere, in fact I carry routinely into the World Arena and Pikes Peak Center for major events here in the Springs even though there are signs that says "No weapons". But of course I work with LE everyday and when we discuss CC for me they routinely re-enforce the fact I can carry anywhere (other then prohibited by statutes) regardless of signs posted. So I'm quite comfortable doing so.

    Anyways, that's my .02

  5. #124
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    I have decided to oversimplify my position in an effort to communicate it successfully…if we are gonna argue semantics lets take it to another level altogether…and its fun….
    In my opinion:
    A business owner is well within their legal rights to post a sign at their business that expresses that they do not want firearms in the business…(eg: no firearms)…as there is no law forbidding them to do so…I personally respect the right of the owner/operator to post their business as they see fit…I don’t agree with it but respect it…
    A business is a privately owned enterprise that allows public access and can restrict public access as it wishes….to further clarify I mean it is free to lock its doors and close at any time it chooses and ask everyone present to leave…and the business owner/operator can change the rules as they please….
    A concealed carry license holder is within their legal rights to enter the business carrying a concealed firearm… where it is legal for them to carry said firearms…(disclaimer to avoid verbal persecution: in states where posting has no legal authority or states where posting is required to meet specific conditions and the sign does not)
    In the event the business owner/operator discovers a person carrying a concealed firearm in their place of business they are within their legal rights to ask the person to leave…
    In the event the person does not leave as requested the business owner/operator is within their legal rights to contact law enforcement and report the person who refuses to leave as trespassing…
    In my opinion and as stated by some:
    Many concealed carry license holders do not believe business owners/operators have the right to infringe on their right to carry firearms and consider it discrimination…I believe it can be defined as discrimination but as it is not discriminating against a protected class as defined by law it is within the business owners/operators right o do so…
    In my opinion:
    Just because the public is allowed to enter a business that does not make the business a public entity…it is open to the public but the owner/operator is allowed to create rules within its legal rights that restrict certain behavior (quiet please…are they infringing on my right to free speech?) or dress (shirt and shoes required-there is no law requiring I wear a shirt and shoes in public…are they infringing on my rights to life liberty and the persuit of happiness?) or attitude (sir, if you insist on being rude I am going to have to ask you to leave..there is no law that states I have to be courteous) or concealed firearms (sir, it has come to my attention that you are in possession of a firearm and we do not allow them here. I am going to have to ask you to leave) etc….

  6. #125
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Well stated sir and fair enough IMO.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  7. #126
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    thanks....appreciated....

  8. #127
    Senior Member Array camsdaddy's Avatar
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    I dont think this fall in a legal vs illegal argument. I see it as they dont want me to carry a firearm into their business. I prefer to carry where legal to do so. I find a compromise I just allow my handgun to accompany my wallet. I choose to do business with people who share my same views.

  9. #128
    Senior Member Array adaman04's Avatar
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    In Missouri the signs hold no merit, so I carry as the law allows.

    If guns were prohibited, I'd probably leave the ammo too and lock the gun in a car safe such as the one from Center of Mass.

  10. #129
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterTree View Post
    So for those who are saying they would "ignore" a business sign>>> what does this prove? It is not that much of a burden to secure the gun in your car or just shop elsewhere. Someone here stated about "using" or having to defend someone inside of one of those businesses.... holy Moses!! Can you imagine the LEGAL ramifications that would accompany that situation... ie, you ignore a "no guns" sign then USE your gun inside....wow! Good luck with that,,,and buy a lot of soap on the rope too.
    Actually, there is case law in regards to the defense in this type of issue. It's built on the idea of "The Doctrine of Competing Harms". Here's a quick blurb of what that entails as taught by Massad Ayoob in his LFI course material.

    Doctrine of competing harms/doctrine of necessity: a key concept to the affirmative defense of justifiable homicide. It comes from English common law and means you are allowed to break the law in the rare circumstance where following the law would cause more human injury than breaking it. Example: you and the family are driving on a two-lane mountain road, with steep embankments on either side and a big double yellow stripe running down the middle of the road. A pickup truck swerves into your lane. With seconds to decide, do you follow the law and not cross the yellow line, or break the law by swerving into the other lane?
    Firefighter/EMT
    "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.

    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)

  11. #130
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gddyup View Post
    Actually, there is case law in regards to the defense in this type of issue. It's built on the idea of "The Doctrine of Competing Harms". Here's a quick blurb of what that entails as taught by Massad Ayoob in his LFI course material.

    Doctrine of competing harms/doctrine of necessity: a key concept to the affirmative defense of justifiable homicide. It comes from English common law and means you are allowed to break the law in the rare circumstance where following the law would cause more human injury than breaking it. Example: you and the family are driving on a two-lane mountain road, with steep embankments on either side and a big double yellow stripe running down the middle of the road. A pickup truck swerves into your lane. With seconds to decide, do you follow the law and not cross the yellow line, or break the law by swerving into the other lane?
    we were taught that in a course on the use of deadly force with a district attorney in rochester, ny...there have been cases of self defense in homes with unregistered guns that have resulted in only the confiscation of the guns and no charges filed as the person was protecting themselves from harm out of necessity...in a state where the gun laws are pretty restrictive...

  12. #131
    Member Array gunsite's Avatar
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    A sign can be a rule or state/Fed Law. If i own a store and decide to put up a sign NO WEAPONS ALLOWED, It's doesn't become a Law.

    If you carry a weapon in ANY State, know the Law regarding CCW of that state.

  13. #132
    Member Array phantom1984's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugergirl View Post
    If a business displays a No Gun sign, I spend my money elsewhere,
    If it is a school or Federal Building and I absolutely have to enter I'll lock the gun up in my vehicle, while still wearing the empty holster that stays concealed under my clothing. Any extra ammo I may be carrying stays where it is, I can't throw it at 800+ FPS.
    Exactly
    NRA Member

    Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

  14. #133
    Senior Member Array Devone6's Avatar
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    Well said.
    My heroes are Veterans and My Father (who was a veteran).

    I believe prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance should have REMAINED in schools, and the Ten Commandments should have REMAINED in schools, courthouses, and everywhere else it was before the ACLU got involved.

  15. #134
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterTree View Post
    So for those who are saying they would "ignore" a business sign>>> what does this prove? It is not that much of a burden to secure the gun in your car or just shop elsewhere. Someone here stated about "using" or having to defend someone inside of one of those businesses.... holy Moses!! Can you imagine the LEGAL ramifications that would accompany that situation... ie, you ignore a "no guns" sign then USE your gun inside....wow! Good luck with that,,,and buy a lot of soap on the rope too.
    Again....it depends on the law of your state. In VA, signs do not have the weight of law.

    Indulging in your fantasy, after it's all over....you look the manager in the eye and say..."Boy, aren't you glad you had a sign up?"
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  16. #135
    Member Array Sledzep01's Avatar
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    I do not read anything on the front doors or windows anywhere I go. I look for the handle and look past it into the area I am entering.
    Here in GA the signs mean nothing anyway.

    Sled

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