Interesting shoot no shoot at the local Wally World.

[Kinetic]

^^^^^^^^YEP^^^^^


They stopped about 2-3 years back Here in Mi.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THE LADY POINTING THE GUN DIDN'T BRING HERE OWN AMMO???

Why isn't chocolate considered a vegetable, if chocolate comes from cocoa
beans, and all beans are a vegetable?

If chocolate comes from cocoa beans, where does cocoa come from? Sorry, I couldn't help it.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[atctimmy]

Why isn't chocolate considered a vegetable, if chocolate comes from cocoa
beans, and all beans are a vegetable?

Beans are not veggies. Beans are legumes, and IIRC they are sometimes included in the Meats and Protiens food group.

[atctimmy]

I agree, and I think LE would agree as well. We are not the Police. Unless there is a credible imminent threat to human life, better not be shooting anyone or a heap of law trouble is coming.

I'm curious if anyone actually understands what the OP posted and later clarified. The lady WAS threatening the clerk with a gun. As the OP scenario goes you come upon her in the process of aggressively pointing a gun at the clerk. You would have no idea that it was unloaded. My opinion is that if you shot her you could clearly articulate why you felt the use of deadly force was needed to protect the life of the clerk. A public defender with a law degree from a Cracker Jack box could win this in court.

The hard part would be living for the rest of your life knowing you shot a woman with an empty gun.

To answer the OPs question: I don't know what I would do in this situation. It would really depend on what I saw of the woman at the time and if I really felt she was going to shoot someone. There is just no way to judge a shoot/no shoot situation like this without being there and in the moment.

[ccw9mm]

I'm curious if anyone actually understands what the OP posted and later clarified.

Sure. It's not rocket science, and he made it very simple and clear (I thought).

The lady WAS threatening the clerk with a gun.

Well, someone can appear to threaten someone, particularly if a bystander has only portions of the facts in hand, or a bystander makers a crucial mental error or leap. And then, there's actually being a threat. There is a difference.

The difference? One requires only one actor's partial actions to appear to be something. The other requires both actors and the totality of circumstances to support the idea of a threat. It's pretty darned likely that a customer who has just been handed a known-unloaded firearm by a clerk would not be taken as a serious, imminent threat by that same clerk. Thus, the whole scene would be colored by that fact. Wouldn't know until I saw the specific circumstances, but it wouldn't surprise me.

As the OP scenario goes you come upon her in the process of aggressively pointing a gun at the clerk. You would have no idea that it was unloaded.

But, that's all details. Let's be specific about the one detail that matters in the OP's original post, which we're all presumed to have misunderstood.

The original, simple scenario indicated a "crazy" lady asks to see a gun and then turns it on the clerk, in which the OP "imagine[s] some poor guy/gal out on their wally walk and they come around the corner and see this situation."

Had I seen that situation, with that amount of detail, in which the clerk handed the customer the presumed/known-unloaded gun, my first response almost certainly wouldn't have been to leap to the assumption that the customer had to be taken down by gunfire. Not without supporting, corroborating factors. Now, such factors might well come hard and fast, and it might well be too late. Sux to have a gun pulled on you, surely. However, it would depend on the situation and whether I could be CLEAR that a death was imminent and it was even a serious crime. It would depend on the specifics. But, for my money, I'd seriously want something else to support the leap that this person was actually a serious threat, before I'd risk my entire future by drawing my firearm to stop that person. AOJ, pure and simple, not merely the appearance of "threat" based on portions of facts. That's bad gambling, and I won't do that when lives are at risk by my actions.

Pretty simple to follow. Pretty clear what needs to be done, I think.

Of course, of a person doesn't see all of those things, one is likely to fumble it and ultimately get arrested for threatening another citizen with a deadly weapon unjustifiably. Again, as we all know, it all comes down to the circumstances and what is actually known.

If we're to speak of other factors, other situations, then we can have that discussion. But with this situation and what is presumed to be known in this scenario by the bystander who comes 'round the corner, I think it's clear that more information is needed before leaping into the fray. YOUR life depends on it.

[Riccur]

Thanks all, obviously the purpose of the post was to get our new CCP holders to think before they leap into action. I can easily see an inexperienced permit holder getting all excited and possibly getting into serious trouble.

These posts and replies certainly help with decision making and may just save a life some day.

[atctimmy]

Well, someone can appear to threaten someone, particularly if a bystander has only portions of the facts in hand, or a bystander makers a crucial mental error or leap. And then, there's actually being a threat. There is a difference.


But with this situation and what is presumed to be known in this scenario by the bystander who comes 'round the corner, I think it's clear that more information is needed before leaping into the fray.

I agree with you 100%. The point of my post was not to judge all previous posters, but to point out that the bystander in this scenario only has limited facts to make the decision whether or not to shoot. The bystander would have a hard time realizing he only had part of the story. Escaping an existing paradigm is always difficult.

Things happen fast in real life and while you're in the moment seeing more than just the "crazy lady with a gun" might make all the difference. Too bad adrenaline causes reduction in peripheral vision and increases tunnel vision. It's hard, in the moment, to make this type of choice. You'd have to be thinking as you round the corner "Holy crap she's got a gun!". You'd instantly be hit with a rush of fight or flight chemicals and decision making would definitely suffer. It's not so easy now if you're the bystander.

Obviously not shooting is the correct answer, but if you or I were suddenly thrust into this, or any, situation were things aren't exactly as they seem would we make the right decision? Who's to say? I HOPE I can.

[bladenbullet]

i'm sorry...i may be confused....

i understand that just coming on the scene and not knowing the gun is fresh out of the cabinet, empty and trigger locked if its walmart one might believe a robbery is taking place...i'm on that...

but is there a group of people here who believe that if they take a shot that the gun pointed at the clerk...in the event it is loaded and it is a robbery...is not going to go off and injure or kill the clerk?...that only works in the movies...

i guess i would have to walk up on this one myself to know what i was going to do..but...if the person piointed the gun at the clerk and it was truly unloaded i dont think i would be walking around the corner and seeing a man standing still with a gun pointed at him...i believe he would probably be beating her to death with it almost instantly as he has nothing to fear grabbing at the gun or just walking to the phone and requesting law enforcement...this doesnt look like its gonna be a high stress situation and its less than likely gunfire is going to be necessary...

i know the general opinion of anyone who works at walmart is low here...but give them a little credit...the kid that works the gun counter at my walmart would probably have her unconscious and hog tied before anyone even knew anything was going on....

[bladenbullet]

Beans are not veggies. Beans are legumes, and IIRC they are sometimes included in the Meats and Protiens food group.

this is the single best response i have seen on any forum to date....thanks for the laugh...