A personal request as to those who carry... - Page 3

A personal request as to those who carry...

This is a discussion on A personal request as to those who carry... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm currently working on becoming a MO CCW instructor and one of the first slides/pages of my presentation is "this class is the beginning, not ...

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array adaman04's Avatar
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    I'm currently working on becoming a MO CCW instructor and one of the first slides/pages of my presentation is "this class is the beginning, not the end". And it's true.


  2. #32
    New Member Array sartorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    It is easy to make fun of these type people. But 1. It sounds like this individual has a real vision concern and likely needs medical attention. and 2. Has no real experience and training in firearm useage and training.

    Think to your own past, likely there was someone, a person or organization, who gave you a basis of firearm training. Many people do not have this at all.

    This guy sounds like your average guy, plus a vision impairment, that all he knows is what he has seen on tv. Maybe after talking with the OP, he will seek out some training.
    I think that he was being serious. Cranial nerve 7 controls the eyelid's ability to close and is located in the brain.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array Adkjoe's Avatar
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    people are scary...
    Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont allows anyone
    who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed without a permit of any kind.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    On a side note, why would it strike you as odd to keep both eyes open?
    That's how I was taught to shoot, that's how I train, and I am proficient.
    Keep both eyes on the target. Practice switching dominance between them as needed.
    If you close one eye to get a sight picture you create a huge blind spot and lose your depth perception.

    I'm interested to know the reasoning behind shooting one-eyed.
    I suspect it wasn't about shooting one eyed. It was about finding out which eye is dominant.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  5. #35
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Y'all: Read all your comments and many still wonder why there is a controversy over certain issues that the 2nd Amendment brings about. As I wrote in my previous reply, the Amendment was written at a totally different time then current urban America. People needed and used their guns and knew how to use them--it meant everyday life and death and food on the table. I'm sorry if you disagree with me, but the firearm of today is not for everyday life and death and food on the table in the same context as 1776. If you can buy a gun with absolutely no training and not even a hint as to what you are doing with it other than having it, something is wrong. For states to ignore the person and only be concerned with the registration and fee, something is wrong. For states to just issue a CCWP because you can walk and talk and pay your fee, something is wrong. Someone replied that we each must accept responsibility; tell that to the family whose father gets shot when this inept gun owner at the range begins blasting and missing during a scenario---it is plain ridiculous that this guy can be walking around armed and hasn't a clue how to fire the gun or even hit something. Even worse are the people who buy guns and do not even bother to go to a range or obtain experienced assistance and training. I tend to believe that based on your attention to this forum, those who read this forum and my rant are not in that category and somehow find at least a portion of my argument to be creditable and disturbing. Up til about 2 years ago I had never handled or even touched a gun in my 68 years. I now have 5 firearms from 22 to 380 to 38 to shotgun and have sought out all sorts of help to be sure I know what I am doing from gun safety to gun use and make sure I am fully informed about SC laws and regulations before I do anything. I would think that all of us would at least expect everyone else to be proficient and not just be a gun owner because they can be. Just sayin. Really hope you can all agree with the "tone" of my message. I do, however, understand the argument that once the "government" gets into this in more detail, they can easily make it impossible to even stand a chance to "participate" in your 2nd Amendment rights.
    Last edited by kelcarry; January 29th, 2010 at 12:35 PM. Reason: word spelling

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Great read Janq!

    I agree, you are quite the gentleman for offering some guidance to the young man. While allot of us, myself included would've probably went about minding our own business, you offered a helping hand to another gent in need of some immediate training. I also think the young man deserves a . Lately you just never know how some of the young folks will accept a little free, but maybe critical advice from a older but wiser gent, not to mention a total stranger.

    We can only hope the young man heeds your advice and follows through with your suggestions for some additional training.

    I salute your efforts.

    GBK
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Questions & Answers

    Q: 'What's with the shooting with one eye?':
    A: I was at that point with the gentleman off the line and discussing how to sight the firearm.

    As I had stated I asked him what is his 'Dominant Eye' (left or right) to which he replied he didn't know and by facial expression this seemed to be a term he was completely unfamiliar with.

    So as an exercise to confirm he was not a person shooting cross-eye dominant (i.e. right handed and left eye dominant) which can screw with a persons ability to properly aim at a target.I'd asked him to do some eye dominance drills with me. These drills require closing of one eye and then closing of the opposite.

    Reading:
    Ocular dominance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Understanding Eye Dominance | November 2006 | TPW magazine
    Dominant Eye test

    Demonstration Video:
    'The Dominant Eye'
    YouTube - The Dominant Eye

    'Cross-dominant Eye'
    YouTube - Cross-dominant Eye

    So please re-read my OP.

    I was _not_ instructing the hooter to do so with one eye. As I'd stated in the OP I was asking about eye dominance and from there attempting to help him discover as much.
    When I instruct in formal courses toward new/intro level shooters always before picking up any guns I do an exercise to ascertain eye dominance. It is important to know as related to hitting any target with a handgun, with a fine accuracy.

    ~~~

    Q: 'There should/should not be a training requirement to carry.'
    A: I am honestly conflicted on this item.

    As related to the gentleman I assure you I have used no hyperbole here. I am reporting exactly what I witnessed as I saw it.

    The only thing I failed to report is the full detail in response to me as by the manager of the range facility in his e-mail...

    "I think I was in a gunsale when he left, so I didn't connect. Hopefully he'll use the class schedule. The guys (myself included) were glad to have your help with him. Thanks."
    I am a big proponent of not just the 2A as here in America per our constitution, but I _firmly_ believe the right to self defense is as afforded to us by nature itself as a birth right. I do waiver on this.

    But still with that said as related to firearms in specific which have by natural operation a trajectory upon use, I am of thought that to make use of them requires some basic understanding of their mechanics. In kind to that is proficiency. The two go hand in hand, as to my view.

    There are people who carry and keep arms in their shared wall space residences as well as businesses who have absolutely no proficiency what so ever, and by that a lack of understanding operational mechanics toward the projectile device in hand.
    This is a serious problem.

    Just as they being a 'being' have the natural basic right, as to my mind, to protect and defend them self....They at the same time as equally have the responsibility to respect the same right of others as within their 360 degree range of firearm function. This means people as beyond their walls, down the street, on the floor above, or a even a mile away as they might say fire a round off errant into the air.
    Responsibility that unfortunately has on much of this planet been fully legislated down to near functional incapacity if not altogether disallowed as by laws of men and their governance.

    Here in the US among select states and as to widely varying degree we do retain this right, as framed within conditions. Conditions men and their governors refer to as statute, regulation and in general 'law'.
    Some states do require by statute demonstration of proficiency as toward active allowance/permission to practice ones right to employ projectile firing weapons as for not just defense but to even feed ones family.
    NH fish & game law for example as by statute specifically requires basic hunter ed. course instructors to not just teach but establish student proficiency as to a tested minimum prior to graduating a student from a course.
    While here in MA we are expressly disallowed by statute to allow any student to handle live ammunition never mind discharge a firearm as under direct training and among a controlled environment, such as would be the case in NH.
    I and my team of fellow instructors (I teach among two teams) who are certified and active in both NH and MA all with no standout have stated as a group that we prefer the NH model to that of MA. There should be a proficiency exam.
    In fact this came up at our last course two weeks ago where a student passed the MA standardized exam by a single point to the minimum. Folk among our group, I did not work with this student directly and thus did not know who they spoke of, stated that the testee was and I quote; "Terrible". Further the instructor who worked with him direct felt that he was a danger and should not be handling a firearm. Quote. But, he passed the state standardized and federal as well as IHEA accredited test and thus we have to by statute allow him his rights.
    There was much hand wringing about this among we instructors during discussion after the class.

    I am conflicted. Honest.
    And to this I feel less than good about it.

    I did not state though in my post that a proficiency exam should be required. To think so is to misread my OP. To that end please re-read.

    ~~~

    Q: 'Does your state (MA) have a proficiency exam/requirement?'
    A: Yes, it does...50% of the time.

    Here in MA to be able to apply for a resident FID (Firearms Identification card) or LTC (License To Carry permit) the statute requires that you take and pass either a MA State Police certified 'Basic Firearms Safety Course' or take a MA Dept. of Fisheries & Wildlife 'Basic Hunter Education' course.
    Application upon passing said course(s) is by statute to be submitted to the 'issuing authority' (police department) of the town/city you A) reside within or B) Own a business as within (brick & mortar physical location).

    Problem is that some towns, and no MA citys that I know of, will accept an BHE course cert as toward an LTC-A ('All Lawful Carry') which due to the jacked up legal system this state has is applicable to high capacity shotgun and rifle and same type magazines as well as same for handguns...AND!...it also allows concealed carry of firearms as in one swoop.
    A lesser LTC-B allows for possession of low capacity (not high capacity) shotguns, rifles, magazines and associated handguns. Further you may still technically carry a handgun with an LTC-B as by statute; As long as it is a firearm of low capacity that is _UNLOADED_ and that the person carrying the firearm does not possess a high capacity magazine.
    Problem is good luck getting away with this in the real world of MA. When instructing courses for reasons of legality and personal protection I as a rule never ever state the above to any student. In fact this is the first time I've ever stated as much in a public manner to anyone. Even as it is technically an item among the statute. Please, do not do this in MA as you will likely become a judicial test case (!).

    So anyway yeah the situation here is stupid, and overly complex!

    As I'd stated prior we are not allowed to give a proficiency exam in a BHE course even as people do apply for an LTC-A in specific to carry arms on our streets. We instructors at large do not feel our course is nor should at all be applied to carry licensing and permission. We though do not and did not make the laws. Largely subject ignorant politicians and their legislative assistants did. That's government.

    While the MA BFS course requirement does involve and require a demonstration of firearm proficiency as at IIRC 7yds./21'. testing though is most commonly done using a .22LR.
    I suspect the gentleman I ran into passed as by a MA BHE cert., though of course I did not query him on that. It's not my place.

    ~~~

    I felt bad about and very conflicted about posting this item at all for many reasons.

    It's going to come off like I'm being judgmental of the guy.
    And I am/was, but not by intent to put him down as a person.
    I'm just reporting, and acted as by, the facts of the matter.
    Also my feelings/emotion about this specific case directly conflicts with again my thoughts on RKBA.
    There are elders and handicapped who cannot barely handle a handgun never mind fire one at distance by any measure aimed or point shooting. But they remain in real world instances functional during many various reported cases, including events posted here at DC.com. Is it okay and right to deny them right to protect them self as based on lack of proficiency and/or knowledge of mechanics? No.
    But should they at least make a concerted effort to get better and/or become more knowledgeable and thus safe as well as functional? Yes.
    Should this be mandated by law? I'm conflicted and unsure but probably not.

    So with this thread I'm asking folk to act as _before_ and without requirement of government mandate. To do so can only help not harm us. IMHO.

    - Janq

    Reference:
    MA Gun Laws (M.G.L. ch. 140, s. 131 and ch. 269 s. 10, 12B & 14)
    Last edited by Janq; January 29th, 2010 at 02:48 PM.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Janq have you ever thought of becoming a RSO?
    I did and am.

    Some time ago after outright being challenged by a person to better inform myself about laws, legality and the right to carry...Which prior I like many subject matter ignorant people...had been against.
    It then seemed like 'common sense' to not have Joe and Jane Blow walking around on the streets 'pack'n heat' like they are pseudo-cops, cowboys or criminals.

    At a different forum, unrelated to guns, some ten years ago now I had argued this case as from the anti-carry side of the fence.
    Even as I had in my lifetime prior carried arms including knives and a handgun on my person as for _self-defense_!
    I was being a complete hypocrite. But I did not think of it at the time as same. I was me and I know me. And then there was everybody else.

    Well a dude at this forum, who I was then and still am friendly with, called me on it and didn't say hey you hypocrite pot call kettle black much as being combative. And doesn't work on me. But rather he appealed to logic and said in effect hey man why don't you read up on some data and laws. That worked. Because I love to read, always have, and I like data...And a challenge.
    So I did...For two years straight. Absorbing everything I could get my hands & eyes on.
    Guess what happened...I saw the proverbial light, and by that truth.

    The rest is a complete and utter reversal of mentality and position.
    Even as still some of these people I see with guns and their practices scare me.

    So rather than be scared/worried as I was (and prior had been) and rather than talk smack on internet forums I decided hey don't talk about it be about it. As my mom through all of my childhood would say; "Don't tell me show me."

    FFWD to current...

    I am now a certified BHE instructor specializing in firearm handling, technique and usage skills, firearm laws & regs state (MA) and federal as well as state game regulations.
    I do so as a certified instructor for the states of MA, NH and the USFWS as well as being member of a team of instructors with Smith & Wesson Co. I was recruited by the team leaders from USFWS and S&W individually, and invited to become an instructor as by the USFWS and MA while being a student through several of their own courses years ago.
    With the USFWS team in specific I am assigned to instruct on the laws and ethics components, and handle the firearm component too as related to handling, use and field application (carry, aiming/sighting, etc.).

    I'm a certified IDPA Safety Officer....And will be working the IDPA Indoor Nationals as such next month per invitation.

    I'm a certified NRA RSO as via invitation and request by S&W Co. (they covered all of my course costs).

    I'm soon to become a certified MA LTC 'Basic Firearms Safety' instructor as well. ETA spring 2010 certification/approval.

    I was supposed to become a certified 'Patrol/Urban Carbine Instructor' this week but my work schedule had me very jammed up busy and I wound up at the last minute having to bag on the course, also as invited by and provided at Smith & Wesson.
    I'm told by the instructor I can try again in the fall on the next course cycle.

    Same instructor has offered me an invitation toward Combat Shotgun and his Pointshooting course into 2010. I hope to schedule either if not both.

    Last year in 2009 alone I was an instructor in 15 BHE courses (two day affairs per course) on average one course a month as across two instructor teams. Beyond that I instruct Trapper Education (I'm a MA licensed trapper) and Waterfowl Identification (Duck hunting) to the latter I am again tasked to focus on regs & laws as well as firearm technique, technology and handling.

    In the BHE course we have one MA EPO ('Game Warden') on hand though with the USFWS team in specific we have among us two EPOs and a USFWS game warden as volunteer instructors and I instruct with them in tandem instructing toward laws and ethics.

    And I have for 4 yrs. now been moderator on one gun forum and am same to a second as with a gun specific sub-area among a private closed forum.

    A complete and utter 100% turn around as from where I started.
    That guy who challenged me back in the day, a decade ago!...He's a member at the private forum and we still regularly battle and argue. But now its esoteric stuff like is the Sig 556 a truly AK based operating system (his view) or is it a modification of the FN FAL type system with design & function optimizations (my view).
    All in good fun of course no animosity at all.

    I thank him though for having challenged me back in the day.
    I'm for the better as a result. In kind I challenge myself to give back and do same, which is what I try to do here...and over there as well. : )

    With the guy I met at the range I hope for his own sake he too chooses to change.
    Otherwise I fear he may get someone if not himself killed, as by so called 'accidental discharge' which to my mind and real world specific case view are 99.9% based in handler/operator/shooter negligence.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    As I was reading through these post it brought up some memories of the battle scars I used to see at a public range I use to belong to. It seemed like every week there was a new hole or blast mark where some kind of careless act took place.

    Scary
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  10. #40
    Member Array aric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    HOW DID HE GET A CCWP IF HE IS SUCH A BAD SHOT? WHAT STATE IS THIS AND DON'T THEY HAVE SOMETHING LIKE A 3YD, 5 YD, 10YD, 15YD SHOOTING test TO GO ALONG WITH A PAPER test?
    There are states that are Right to keep and bear arms friendly.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Adkjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aric View Post
    There are states that are Right to keep and bear arms friendly.
    Yea and MA is not one of them....right next door here in VT you can't even find a firearms class if you tried. Anyone can carry a concealed pistol without a permit at age 16 and up as long as you can legally own one you can carry it. I'm sure the majority of people that carry here can't hit a target 5 feet in front of them, but hey if I'm in a shoot out hopefully that means better odds for me.
    Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont allows anyone
    who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed without a permit of any kind.

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FknRa View Post
    However we do regulate parethood to a degree. Child protective services will take your kids away if you are proven to be a danger (using an example not agreeing with it) and you must prove to the state that you are a fit parent before you can get your kids back.


    Some people just like to blast away and have no interest in improvement. But if you cant put 8/10 on a paper plate at 7 yards you have no buisness being at a public range. (i'm giving some leeway for people who are actually working on improving)
    I agree, but that's after you have the kids...and they get taken away. If you prove yourself unable to use your handgun properly, the right to CC can be taken away too. In both cases tho, the bar is fairly high (and costly :-( )

    And yeah, the range can be a scary place for sure. I try to keep my eyes open around me for unsafe practices.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Sorry if you disagree with me, but the firearm of today is not for everyday life and death and food on the table in the same context as 1776. If you can buy a gun with absolutely no training and not even a hint as to what you are doing with it other than having it, something is wrong

    Someone replied that we each must accept responsibility; tell that to the family whose father gets shot when this inept gun owner at the range begins blasting and missing during a scenario---it is plain ridiculous that this guy can be walking around armed and hasn't a clue how to fire the gun or even hit something. Even worse are the people who buy guns and do not even bother to go to a range or obtain experienced assistance and training. .

    To play Devil's Advocate a bit (and not completely because I'm discussing just a more extreme view of my own stance)....as I said earlier....this is a *right,* just like having kids. And I bolded an applicable statement in your quote. We cant control this right (& we do indeed have some restrictions on CC) and as a society, we all must deal with that.

    See my sig: 'Freedom doesnt mean safe, it means free.' That means the responsibility is on us, not the govt and it shouldnt be. If we let them make us safe, it means more laws and more regulation.

    Second bolded phrase: that scenario is just as likely...even more so...by poorly raised or abused kids. And again...we dont have alot of control over that. But it's a right (under Pursuit of Happiness?) to do so. And so we all must be vigilent and do our parts to contribute to society to make it better. Like Janq did.


    and btw, my state, as Cammo girl stated, has no written or training requirement. And I havent seen any data that indicates that WA has more incidents involving CCers.
    Last edited by 9MMare; January 29th, 2010 at 03:26 PM. Reason: forgot some bolding
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #44
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    In Ms. all you need to get your cc. permit is the required fee and be able to pass the background check....Period!
    Most people go through life wondering if they made a difference. Marines don't have that problem! Ronald Reagan

  15. #45
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    My last time at the Vandalia Armory range, to break in my new Kel-Tec P-11 for the first time, the range officer started giving me advice and tips, the basics, starting from scratch, seeing what my pattern was on the target and what I was doing. FREE LESSONS! I'm a big boy and can take it, despite my ego and memories of how I used to shoot and what I used to do. This range officer knew what I did not know, or remember, and could see me and what I could not see. He saved me bullets and time, getting the most out of my hour. Age does not mean wisdom, despite old but rusty experience and the good old days, and free advice is nice coming from experienced shooters and range officers.

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