My wife is against me CCing. What do I do?
This is a discussion on My wife is against me CCing. What do I do? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Great post, merischino... thank you. For what it's worth, you were right.
I talked with my wife tonight -- our first "heart to heart" about ...
February 15th, 2010 05:06 AM
Great post, merischino... thank you. For what it's worth, you were right.
I talked with my wife tonight -- our first "heart to heart" about it and found out the baggage you were referring to. Her best friend since kindergarten and herself were at the friend's house when the State Police literally broke through the house, ordered everyone on the ground at gunpoint and arrested the friend's mother - they were in high school at the time, mind you. Apparently, the mother shot her husband, hid the body and came back home - carried on as if nothing happened. Typical seemingly normal middle-class suburban family - they lived down the street from each other their whole lives - the families were best of friends. Nobody would have expected. The second incident is related to a relative who shot himself in the head while cleaning a gun.
So, this would explain her perception and contempt of guns. Yes, one could argue that's even more reason to procure a firearm for defense. Trust me, that argument didn't hold out with her. She sees them as bad as that's been her only association with them and she can't get past it. Obviously, it would do her good to talk to someone about these feelings as we've been together over 12yrs and this the first time I've ever gotten details on those events... I guess it just didn't come up because I too was anti-gun until recently.
Nonetheless, one of her comments earlier was "I love you with everything in me and I appreciate you trying to protect us, but it won't be with a gun. I'm sorry, but it's either your family or the gun - I can't do it." And I believe her. She says she still, after all these years, has nightmares about the state police holding her to the ground at gunpoint at her friend's house.
So, I'm well aware of the points and I know how some of these tough guys who suggest getting a new wife would handle it, but I'm going to give her time and support her in hopes she can one day move past it. It's the right thing to do, we're a team. I feel that once we start traveling extensively again, she'll start to see what's out there. We're relatively sheltered here - hasn't been a single homicide in two years and the crime map is almost bare.
In the meantime, the Bersa will remain away for the time being and I'll focus my immediate efforts on non or lesser lethal defense tools.
February 15th, 2010 07:09 AM
Can I tell you how thoroughly impressed I am? Thrilled. I am plain flat Thrilled that you had that heart to heart with her. I think it is just so, so so important to have this kind of communication with loved ones about these issues. They do matter in a very direct and personal way, to all of us, male or female.
Right now I am struggling with my own issues... specifically knowing my mother to be a person with attitudes not unlike your wife's (although if she has any personal, direct experience of any kind whatsoever other than marrying a man who had been career-military and a personal-gun-tragedy survivor, which as I specified the family quite simply does not discuss i do not know it) I am afraid to discuss my own interest, specifically my current, directed, protracted interest, in self-defense matters, with her and my stepfather for fear of exciting or agitating her worst fears.
Daily I wonder what my stepfathers advice to me would be, as I consider all the legal and liability issues, the practical hazards, the implications and connotations, the choices available to me, just the grim totality of it all. What advice would he give me? His military background could be an asset, as would his most unfortunate experience. His years living on a ranch with livestock, or post-military career in exploration where months in deep, unpenetrated outbacks required not only defense against wild animals but bush-doctor certifications and etc. He is hands-down the best possible available resource to me for lifelong hard practice lessons learned. Would asking him anything, anything at all be an exercise in familial.... self flagellation?
But this isn't really about me, it's about you, and your wife. I am really, really happy that you and she are able to discuss these issues and reinforce your feelings for eachother as paramount. Possibly, with time and exposure and the sincere belief confirmed through experience that you will not act to conceal danger to her or your kids from her or your kids she may find herself growing less wary and fearful of the very concept of guns. This will likely be for her a process that will take time.
For me, it has been a long 10+ years of personal experience of being in the wrong place at a oh-so-close-to wrong time in ways that I simply could not predict or reasonably be expected to be able to avoid that has caused me to perform a rather radical self-examination and arrive at the realistic, considered conclusion that it's high time I stopped kidding myself into a sense of safety when its proven that safety is a mindset, not a given.
For what it's worth, I have spent almost the entirety of this night reading a Yale Law Review treatise (dated) on the state of the right to bear arms as it pertains to women in this country, and it's just frightening. The simple truth (if this reports analysis has not been borne out by the courts) that if a man use deadly force to defend self, property, home, family, or others the protections of the constitution are significantly more likely to be considered to apply to his case than if a woman does so. It is also a current basic truth that the police do not act to protect individual citizens (particularly women in self-defense scenarios) but to enforce the law after a crime has been committed.
When the time comes to have this conversation with your wife again, it may be prudent to discuss this point about the role police play and what the connotations and implications might be in a scenario where the threat to your family comes from outside the home, not from inside where the danger is your own defense articles. Not arming herself is a very relevant and prudent decision for a woman in many circumstances in the eyes of the law where for a man the reasons for not arming oneself do not apply. If she can reach a level of trust and comfortability with your family protection choices and methods, she may find that permitting you to arm yourself for the protection of the family is a wise and considered choice.
That said, I am not promoting that you push her in any way or on any point or direction (doesn't sound like you would be anyway - more power to you!), merely adding that, if that time comes there are plenty of statistics that show that unfortunate accidental deaths due to gun misuse as a general rule do not happen in well-protected and competent, trained, club-or organization-belonging non-criminal and non-substance abusing homes (quantifiably, in less than 1% of accidental deaths or fewer than 1 in 280,000 in a 1993 document I just read).
As for the betrayal factor of that mother she mentioned in the first incident, with 12 years of marriage already behind you and being gun owners already the criminal background checks etc have clearly been done - she should not have to fear you as a potential criminal. It will simply be a matter of ease, trust, and comfortability, which generally comes with time and open communication. You seem more than adequately capable of doing whats necessary to get her there. If she doesn't get there, it may not be your fault. Trauma is, quite simply, traumatic. She may never achieve a level of comfortability with guns. As long as you do not determinedly conceal gun-related activities from her, removing the option as she clearly indicated to you (from your first post) she wants to retain of removing herself and her kids from the perceived danger zone (which is her right and responsibility as a mother), the betrayal factor should be borne out as not applying to you, and the potential threat to your marriage should be effectively eliminated.
I am glad that what I wrote was helpful to you. I wish you and your wife the absolute best. I am very glad that you added the information about the lack of crime statistics for your neighborhood. That will make this difficult time for you both a lot easier, not having the stress of being in a danger zone while you discuss these issues.
I only wish that the pressures and issues that are making me face my own self-defense fears would magically abate for me so that I could make up for a lifetime of ignorance with considered study and research without feeling like I'm at risk. The great good news on that topic is that I do have a dear bf who is a trained medical professional, emergency- and hurricane-response professional with a CCW and a willingness and readiness to be my pick-the-brain resource whenever I so choose. I can reassure myself that I am not a lonely damsel in distress who must run out and buy a gun in a hurry. Thank God.
February 15th, 2010 07:18 AM
Here you go. Just type in your zip code
Originally Posted by Intrepid
CrimeReports | The National Crime Map
"We must remember that one man is much
the same as another, and that he is best
who is trained in the severest school."
~Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War
February 15th, 2010 10:33 AM
Reading and reflecting on positions of prior posts in the thread....
[QUOTE=Saber;1474757]... Fact is, and in my experience, a lot of women do tend to share your wife’s opinion. I found it difficult to explain to some of my female friends that the culture we live in isn’t all about Barbie Dolls and pigtails. ...
short preamble, this comment is not limited to the person who posted the above, but is a gathering/conglomeration of my reflections and responses to the very many and varied male opinions of the hugely widely, and so numerously represented long suffering defensive carry community posting on this topic. The above is simply the briefest, and most colorfully clear picture of one of the attitudes presented.
I have posted long, reflective, detailed, hopefully thought provoking responses of the newly minted female carry-forward position on the many, very detailed, very serious, very legitimate, very very personally lived reasons why a woman might have the kind of seemingly hysterical, knee-jerk reactionary, "unreasoned" response to the carry-related situation presented. A view which can and I sincerely hope will orient those men who are experiencing issues with spousal acceptance of self-defense carry behaviors on how to sensitively, thoughtfully, carefully address the issues close to a woman's heart that could, and would, and rightfully so, inform her to be so very adamant on her position that she would consider invoking the "D" as you fellows call it.
I'm hardly done reading all the many many posts between the OP which I responded to so reflectively and the most recent posts (about halfway there) but I can hardly contain myself and simply must say something.
On the topic of religion: to each his own. That's why I love my country.
On the topic of politics: I sincerely doubt that such an emphatically heartfelt and vigorously defended female position could ever be the result of a casual citizen's consumerist digestion of anti-carry propaganda. Even in the instances where the wifely objections to the defensive carry proposition are not hysterically delivered, I would sincerely hope that you would respect your wives enough consider them to be thinking people who inform their opinions on such topics with both a thoughtful regard (however deeply educated and penetrated on the topic they may be) to safety issues and a deeply felt emotional regard for the parties whose safety is under consideration. In instances where the "D" word is not raised, ultimatums are not in play, seemingly contradictory behaviors (ie having the dispute immediately after a joint range shooting outing) are not in play, does not mean that the females reasons for having issues and concerns regarding the methods, articles, and execution of safety and defense have any less grounding in real life and real life situations than your own opinions and beliefs.
While it may be true that men's perspectives on safety issues are generally developed based on real life experiences and attitudes that are learned and ingrained in them at younger ages and via career paths and societal gender role expectations that perhaps don't apply or have not, in the woman's experience, yet applied to the woman involved in the discussion, I firmly believe that it is fundamentally untrue that any woman "armed" with any opinion on any safety issue would be informing her belief system singularly and only with a perspective based entirely on total and complete ignorance.
I am a defensive carry supporter. That said, I am only newly minted as one. I have posted earlier about having maintained for most of my life the mentality that guns were bad. I have also posted the reasons for that belief. These reasons had exactly zero to do with how guns are portrayed on television (by any partisan slant on either fictional or news -- note not called factual -- source) or by how gun control lobbyists or 2nd Amendment supporters argue the issue with propaganda. My reasons for my attitude were informed by my own life experiences and the life experiences of the people I cared about and our collective experience with guns and defensive scenarios in real life.
Add to that... women are almost from breath numero uno taught that in their lifetimes, the single biggest threat to their personal safety is who? (deliberate pause waiting for your response) YOU.
Not "men". Not "other stranger men in the great outdoors." Not "other stranger men who may break in". But a) men they know. b) men they are in most instances related to or married to. c) men they were or are involved with and are trying to or have successfully (they think) left behind.
This is the huge white elephant in the room that I see exactly none of you have considered. Your wives and girlfriends may have very strong feelings about your carrying a gun (yes, specifically a gun, not you in other areas of your lives but yes you specifically carrying specifically a gun. and yes, you ok with a gun when she knows its there is fundamentally different from 'you with a gun you are deliberately concealing from me for whatever reason you deem valid and probably also deliberately keep from me'
My challenge to you. Can you please consider and address and inform your own attitudes towards women who play the "deliberate ignorance of self defense issues card" when they refuse to elaborate on their reasons for just exactly why they oppose your methods and tactics of carrying weapons around the house, around the children, and around her?
Can you also, considering this issue, respect and admire and honor and again respect that, however her attitudes may change with increased exposure to your thoughts, research, support for and decisions regarding your methods and tactics of how you employ weapons these changes in attitudes may not necessarily be due to her final willingness to consider life-threatening situations out in the world, but more due to her increased understanding of you, your motivations and drives, your considered, well-reasoned, well-supported and now, finally, shared decisions on methods and tactics of weaponry in your lives?
The more you employ an attitude of "this is important and i've considered it well and made my decision and you just plain have to live with it" likely the harder it will be for her and the longer it will take for her to achieve a level of tolerance and maybe ultimately of ease, comfortability, acceptance, and sharing of the defense chore.
Please respect that many if not most arguably all women are trained early and well that a very very very effective method of maintaining relationships with men is to adopt an attitude of ignorance or plain stupidity no matter their intelligence level or actual in-depth education on any issue. The societal norm (however attractive or unattractive it may be) is that for women to attract and keep men they needs must not
-intimidate them with their brilliance,
-overpower them with their education,
-outshine them in their perceived status in the community,
-outearn them in their career choices
-dominate them with their aggression
... the list does not stop there.
Have any of you considered the above when you have considered your spouse's seeming lack of support for their seemingly incomprehensibly *irrational* decisions?
To sum up, the world your wives and girlfriends (or potential partners if you're currently blissfully single) live in is a very real hotbed of danger to them that they are very very very familiar and aware of dangers to them and their children in an instinctive and societal way that is almost completely different than yours but is no less real or well-reasoned. Statistically speaking, the home invasion and SD dangers you are arming yourselves against are truly marginal risks compared to the frequency, immediacy, duration, actual numbers of casualties and ultimately fatalities that women face at the hands of their men.
Its an ugly, ugly, ugly truth. Can you face it? Whether your wives face it directly and persistently and closely enough to be able to quote statistics with you in their discussions with you or even consciously enough to be able to articulate and or enumerate their reasons to you or even can face it long enough to admit to themselves in a conscious and direct way that (absent a trauma cause as discussed in an earlier post) in truth, the cause for their objection is that maybe, really, they are afraid of you.
February 15th, 2010 01:21 PM
Well Merischino, I think a very good point you make is that women's safety issues in this country tend to be very different from men's and that those men closest to them indeed are often those they end up having to fear the most....even if that is only subconscious.
Please excuse me if I have misinterpreted this (singular) point from your post.
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
February 15th, 2010 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by merischino
Merischino, could you please expand on this? And thank you for your thought-provoking research and postings.
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
February 15th, 2010 01:47 PM
merischino, good post.
I think a lot of times we get into this judgmental thing with people who are not firearms owners or who aren't interested in our vision of self-defense. And that causes us to kind of put our blinders on to a really crucial point: whatever these people are currently doing in terms of self-defense, even if it looks like "doing nothing at all" to us, it's a choice that has worked for them up until now. They're still alive. Therefore, their choices have worked and have been a successful strategy in their lives up until this point.
Any time we want someone to change behavior that has worked in the past, worked all of their lives, and that has worked without causing emotional or social upheaval in the way that firearms do, we really need to keep that thought strongly in mind. Their choices have worked. Talking people into throwing away behavior that has worked well for them is a hard sell, and an impossible one if you begin by insulting either that behavior or the person.
A better technique might be to explain the benefits of the change, building on the choices they've already made and that have been successful for them.
Gila Hayes, in her excellent book Personal Defense for Women, does a masterful job of this in her opening paragraphs:
With just two paragraphs, Hayes acknowledges the game plan that has kept the vast majority of women alive: avoidance, evasion, misdirection. She doesn't belittle that plan in any way, but instead, she builds on it to explain why a woman might consider starting from there and taking the journey into armed self defense. She does this without insulting her readers and without belittling their efforts to date -- and without assuming that they are "sheeple" who have "done nothing" to defend or protect themselves.
Originally Posted by Gila Hayes in Personal Defense for Women
Sometimes, I suspect that in our zeal to protect the people we care about, our sales jobs aren't always quite so masterful...
February 15th, 2010 01:53 PM
Perceptions of her objections
[QUOTE=ccw9mm;1495303]Yeah, such comments are pretty snotty. Like most knee-jerk reactions, they completely ignore the point: which is, control. It ain't about guns.
--> You are actually completely ignoring the point: it is not about control. It is not about guns. It is about the woman also having a responsibility to her family to create and maintain a safe environment. Her perceptions of what is a credible and immediate threat to the safety of the family may be different than yours. Communication regarding these differences are necessary. Approaching her concerns with an attitude of "your arguments are inferior and your identification of articles/methods/tactics to dispute are ridiculous" is going to be less than constructive, either to the discussion at hand or the marriage on the whole.
Claiming that as a man your responsibility to the safety of the family somehow means that her preferences and opinions as regards creating and maintaining the safety of her person and her children do not apply is faulty logic.
The thing is, the ability to defend one's children, family and self against threats is one of the crucial abilities that adults must have ... else, what's the point of procreating.
It comes to this: blackmailing a divorce over having firearms or other life-saving defensive tools around is about control; and if successful it results in the inability to stop violence when it most matters, when life is on the line. That simply defeats the entire purpose of having loved ones.
---> it appears to me that your attitude regarding your wife's attempts to emphasize the validity of her proposing to have an opinion in this matter, and to underline for you in a meaningful and direct way that you can understand that she considers the Value of Her Opinion in this matter to be of utmost importance to her is something that even in the light of this direct, clear, impossible to deny communication that she needs to be HEARD by you on this Matter under discussion -- is the perfect example of why such a woman would need to employ such a method of communicating with you.
Closed minds are an ugly thing. Particularly when there are children to think of.
---> I agree with you wholeheartedly on that statement. Please consider examining your own attitudes and beliefs regarding the roles and responsibilities between yourself and your wife, and consider the possibility that it's you that has the closed mind.
It's not about guns. It's about the ability to keep a family safe. It's about the whole array of preparations, mindset, and yes tools, that supports a cautious, defensive posture in this very dangerous world. It's not about guns. And to have a person make it about guns avoids the crux of the issue. It also avoids a serious implication about the position being taken, that a person is willing to blackmail a marriage and support of children over demanding the inability to protect and defend a family.
--> Please reread this statement carefully. Examine it not from your own perspective but imagining that you are, instead, your wife. Imagine a world where your wife loves and cares about you, your children, and yourself. Consider her life experiences with guns. Broaden that to her life experience and the experiences of those with whom she communicates regularly, with not just guns but defensive weapons, methods, and tactics of any stripe. Seriously consider the matter from her point of view. Reread your statement. Do you still think that your last sentence is fair, that her insistence upon having a right to a fair hearing of her issues regarding the matter of the safety of her life, her family, her home, her children, from things she perceives to be credible threats to same? Does she in reality in your marriage have no say in the matter? If so, is coloring her insistence on having a right to an opinion as attempted emotional and financial blackmail.... still seeming to you to be a valid evaluation of her motives and intentions?
Yet she appears prepared to do so, for such a little (claimed) thing. That's a big indicator, right there.
--> evaluating her concerns in terms of the size or importance of their value in relation to the size and importance of your own concerns is going to be interpreted by her as you devaluing her. Period. If she has little or no perceived value in your relationship, why ever would you think her threats of leaving you are attempted blackmail?
I hope you do not regard this comment as an attack in any way.
The gender issues represented here in this thread are very real threats to both the health of the marriages/relationships in question as well as to the ability of both parties to defend with what they both consider to be responsible, reliable, acceptable methods/weapons/tactics their homes, property, families, liberty.
When the different genders choose to employ different methods and tactics, the likelihood that a "to each his/her own" mentality of support and tolerance between the couple can be reached is going to be directly related to the ability of each party to communicate and agree on the definitions of "what is a credible threat" and "what is a safe environment" and "what is a defensible position". The fact remains that the genders tend to have completely different processes on how they come up with their definitions of these three things. Without communication and discussion of these definitions, achieving a comfortability factor with the other partners choices of methods/weapons/tactics is going to be difficult.
Insisting on holding a belief that the opposite gender does not have a right to an opinion on the definitions central to creating and maintaining a safe environment, is at the heart of this discussion and applies equally to the women who are here anecdotally mentioned. I believe they need to hold you and your processes of arriving at your definitions of how to create a safe environment in a respectful regard. I do not believe that by virtue of either her gender or yours one of you is more righteous in your definitions and therefore more righteous in your choices of methods or tactics.
February 15th, 2010 02:18 PM
If she REALLY wants a divorce over such as your personal choices I think you guys need some professional help.
and ask her is she willing to live with herself if something bad happened because she wouldn't let you carry? i.e. kidnapping rape etc.
I carry a gun because I don't want to carry the burden of regret the rest of my life should/if the poop hits the fan.
February 15th, 2010 11:08 PM
See my post #165. Shes changed her tune slightly. Soon she'll be whistling our song
"If everyone was allowed to carry guns, them hijackers wouldn't have no superiority. All you gotta do is arm all the passengers, then no hijacker would risk pullin' a rod."
- Archie Bunker
February 16th, 2010 01:19 AM
Sorry to have hijacked your topic, Nathan!
I'm happy to report a bit of progress on my end, however... After our calm, heart-to-heart, my wife gave it more thought today and agreed to let the Bersa stay if I'm willing to ease her into the idea of gun ownership by not going lock, stock and barrel - carrying 24/7. A fair compromise in my mind given the risk factor in my area is minimal at best and I'm more concerned about traveling. As of right now, I can't carry to the majority of the places I visit anyway -- government buildings, restaurants (that serve alcohol -- here's hoping for the ban removal) and my daughter's school. I telecommute, so that's not a concern.
Given the layout of our home, our 5yr old daughter's position in the home and the fact we often travel in our motorhome with similar concerns - we agreed the Glaser Safety Slugs would be our best bet. I know it's not the favorite of many here and there are no guarantees, but I (and my wife) feel it's most appropriate for our needs at this time. We may evaluate later-on.
Progress is progress - I'll take it with appreciation to her for giving it more thought and sacrificing her beliefs in the spirit of protecting our family.
merischino - your posts have certainly given some of us a lot to think about - your insight is truly appreciated.
February 16th, 2010 01:38 AM
I also have some mixed feelings when my wife caries more than $100 in cash. When she buy's a purse worth more than the contents. There "could be" a need, but I have mixed feelings.
Originally Posted by nathan9493
I share the quoted opinion concerning CC as well. On the balance, I feel there are more reasons to carry than not.
My wife, does not feel the same way, and does not want to carry every day. She still wanted a CC permit for days she wanted to carry, make trips to the range a little easier, and when we go on hikes.
I respect those who don't like or want to carry, all I ask is they do the same for more.
February 16th, 2010 02:31 AM
I you are unconvinced about carrying or not, come, spend a couple of weeks on vacation at my house!
You would be convinced! Promise!
And I live in a nice neighborhood in the city!
February 16th, 2010 10:17 AM
Good to hear that you're making some progress LLT.
Even though it happened years ago, your wife might benefit from post traumatic stress counseling. Being forced to the floor and having a gun held to your head would do a number on anyone.
February 16th, 2010 04:39 PM
Kudos on the progress, whatever the actual outcome. The important point is that the discussions are happening, that the safety and security preparations are now mutual/joint preparations. That can make them far more powerful against intruders, attack. And that mutual understanding and agreement is far more important to a family plan than any single, specific preparation.
Originally Posted by LLT
Congrats on the improvements!
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