Are night sights useful for CCW? - Page 2

Are night sights useful for CCW?

This is a discussion on Are night sights useful for CCW? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by HK Dan Can't hurt, really. I don't think they help much either, though. Face it, if it's too dark to see your ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK Dan View Post
    Can't hurt, really. I don't think they help much either, though.

    Face it, if it's too dark to see your sights, it's too dark to ID your target. If it's light enough to ID your target, it's light enough to see your sights. I have them on my carry guns, but I surely wouldn't add them to a pistol that didn't come with them unless the original sights broke, etc.

    Dan
    Although you might be able to ID the target, it might not be light enough to see the sights.

    Point shooting is good, but having sight that you are able to see in the dark is good too. I did not realize how good night sights are until I installed them.
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"


  2. #17
    Member Array wkientz1's Avatar
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    I have a Veridian Green for my Glock and my XD. The pulsing light can be very distracting to the BG too. I have the rechargeables and carry a few batteries with me so I can always be ready. Unless otherwise you are in a dire situation, (the battery on my Veridian last 4 hours...) will a fight last that long?
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Night sights make point shooting in dim light or darkness very possible......actually, all one needs is the front night sight.
    +1
    This is the way I do most of my practice shooting. That and hip shooting.

    Michael

  4. #19
    Member Array smed1869's Avatar
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    When I took my CHL class a few months back, my instructor advised against night sights and lasers. His logic was that your pulse rate would be so high in the event of a SD situation that your eyesight wouldn't be able to focus on or even see the night sights, and your hands will be trembling so much that the laser dot will be jumping all over the place, and you will delay shooting as you try to control and aim it. Not saying I totally agree, but I think there is a small bit of wow-that's-a-neat-gadget rather than real functionality when it counts with the NS and LS.

    That being said, the Springer Champion Operator I have on order has them factory-installed. Can't hurt I suppose.

  5. #20
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    The real question for me is "is there any detriment to having night sights?" and for me, the answer is no. I can imagine times when a SD situation won't allow time for any sight alignment but if there's time to bring the gun up to eye level, I would prefer to have night sights. My carry guns that see the majority of use have night sights. For some, like the LCP, it's not an option. They are on my Kahr and all three of my Sigs. If TruGlo ever offers their TFOs for the PPS, I'll have them on that one.

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  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Night sights make point shooting in dim light or darkness very possible......actually, all one needs is the front night sight.

    Be sure to practice using only the front sight as well.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  7. #22
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    ...and my temptation is to get them installed on maybe a good big fun gun or two...instead of the cheaper, smaller more useful guns that I might actually have with me and use [in and around Dayton, Ohio, and safer surrounding plat-and-plaza suburbs].

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    Save your $$$ learn & train to point shoot. In SD distances less than 21ft you don't need sights to hit COM. That half second that it takes you to line up your sights may be needed to save your life.
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array KevinDooley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAT40 View Post
    Save your $$$ learn & train to point shoot. In SD distances less than 21ft you don't need sights to hit COM. That half second that it takes you to line up your sights may be needed to save your life.
    While point shooting is important, your advice seems to fly in the face of pretty much every instructor I've ever spoken to or know of...
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

    The will to win is worthless if you do not have the will to prepare. -Thane Yost

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    Aimed shooting doesn't work during actual close combat situations. How many instructors have gone door to door clearing rooms in urban combat that you know of? The one's with experience that I've talked with say it's all about point shooting. Have a BG lunge at you from 6ft with a knife and see how aimed shooting works for you.
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array KevinDooley's Avatar
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    I'm glad you have friend that tells you to ignore your sights. Many instructors are former operators at some level and I have yet to learn from one or see one espouse not knowing how to use your sights. They all recommend night sights and they all recommend learning the proper fundamentals of shooting before learning and ADVANCED technique like proper point shooting. Yes there are situations (like the one you listed above) where all you will have time to do is point shoot - but to tell someone to not bother to learn to use sights is negligent and dangerous.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

    The will to win is worthless if you do not have the will to prepare. -Thane Yost

  12. #27
    Member Array swatspyder's Avatar
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    In the words of Janq...

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...81-post51.html

    Not that under said situation one would need to see their sights, crisply.

    With training one develops rather quickly a kinesthetic response, as in 'muscle memory'.
    This training induced learned motion and _coarse_ sighting of ones arm be it a handgun, longgun, knife, or bow too results in correct and very accurate placement of specifically the firearm as within the area of the threat.
    Further non gun sight specific cues are very much available as well including sighting by way of simply 'pointing' the firearm at the target. Or using the back of the firearm as a large 'sight' of sorts itself toward aiming at the target which almost always is much larger in total area than that of the gun as viewed from the rear (slide).
    Additionally there is simply making a fist, or with with two hands the point of a triangle, to aim the gun at the targets area. This alone can be done with good accuracy under stress against targets as small a 6" childrens plate.

    In fact without sights at all persons have been and are very much able to score hits regardless of background illumination and do so not even raising the gun to within their frontal or peripheral vision as below the face.
    See indexed point shooting instruction including the featured video of police trainees doing just this; Swedish Police Point Shooting

    During the 2008 IDPA Indoor Nationals there was a stage called 'At The Disco' which duplicated _exactly_ what you describe.
    It was running of The Standards only it was done indoors inside a testing tunnel with lights turned off but that of a single illuminated as _green_ disco ball.

    I shot that year using a gun that had not night sights but OEM target sights front and rear. Both being black.
    I shot that stage the best of any stage I'd shot and I shot it better than half the field in my group. So well in fact that national champion and S&W factory shooter Craig Buckland who was working that stage totalled up my points then asked me what sights I was using. When I told him plain target sights he looked puzzled. I then explained telling him this...

    At the farthest distances I used my front sight to obscure light from the rear sight as shown forward. When there was no more light to be seen as through the rear sight picture, I then pressed the trigger.
    At the closest distance though which was IIRC 15' I simply point shot that stage using the back and top of my slide in to the A/0 zone.

    Nothing fancy or gimmicky. Just plain old adaptation as on the fly.
    Adapt and overcome...As all I needed to see was what I could see.
    Task order was to hit the target. Period. I did not have to hit head only or eyes only. Just the target and not miss the target (drop rounds).

    Another person in a different post asked about having shot and trained under low light and adverse light conditions.
    I have done just that in training and when using Simunitions (FoF) as using both a handgun (Sims) and with longguns in training, successfully.
    This is not difficult to do IF and when one has a primary key item in the form of lighting.

    If the subject is dark and you are backlit thus making it difficult to see your sights as in the dark, then that is when and why shooter managed lighting is necessary.
    Having clear and highly visible sights without specific ability to _see_ your target and identify it is exactly what results in incidents such as this; Man Shoots Fiancee Day Before Wedding

    In fact tonight, by pure ironic chance alone, I went to a MA hunter education instructors seminar as hosted by the state.
    During the seminar the subject of sights came out as related to teaching students about same. Be it longgun or handgun as both types of hunting arm are lawful in MA.
    The states Administrator was hosting the event and she went on to talk about being able to identify the intended target as "nose to tail", before taking the shot. And how this as a shooters practice greatly reduces chances of hitting wrong game (i.e. antlerless deer) or worst sniping someones cow, dog, or a human being. All of which do unfortunately occur. Hunting goes on from sun up to sundown.
    Guess what is key there as well? Light. Light as in being able to _see_ your target clearly as against that of your sights.

    Now I'm not saying night sights are not useful.
    They are.
    But outside of narrow situations to which most often the average civilian who is not a police sharp shooter will not occur, standard sights with a light source in hand to positively identify the target are better than night sights with no other means to actually see the target.
    This has been tested as well by many folks including Ayoob and sadly to less than desired results by numerous citizens; Tactical-Life.com A Shot In The Dark!

    IMHO night sights fall a distant third i pecking order.

    1) Training.
    Train to a degree that being able to by muscle memory/kinesthetics alone will result in ability to use _coarse_ firing to hit an 8" plate at 15'. This and closer is what is most typcial in max distance that the vast majority of police do encounter combatants as with gun fire. So say the DOJ and FBI. Civilians are same and even closer down to zero feet. You don't need night sights to see a guy standing directly in front of you at arms length or less.
    Oppositely civilians are very rarely ever justified to take distant shots at such a distance that fine, rather than coarse, sight control is necessary so as to either hit the target at all (!) and/or situations where fine degree hits are necessary and justifiable. Such as head shots again at beyond 15' or hitting a shooter who is deeply behind bullet resistant cover.

    2) Artificial light source
    AKA a flashlight.
    You should not be firing on what you cannot verify which you cannot _confirm_ as being a threat.
    See the dead fiance story. Or see the very many others of same and similar that occur seemingly every 2or 3 months.

    3) Night sights
    After the above the use of night sights does make sense.
    Albeit their actual use in the real world for the vast majority of shootings, and thus 'shooters', is real world narrow be they civilian or police.

    Personally 2 of my 3 carry guns have night sights.
    The odd one out has a FO front sight with non-illuminated target rear.

    Night sights in darkness



    Source - http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8384/sig2wd6.jpg

    Darkness illuminated by artificial light



    Source - http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1069/nightsights.jpg

    Which 'sight picture' would you rather have AND if you did shoot try to justify/defend (!) as to a jury of your peers?

    To me the choice is quite obvious and clear.
    Green dots against darkness and shadow I cannot actually 'see' is functionally useless, and quite difficult to defend as being justified.

    Light and thus being able to see your target/threat FTW.

    - Janq

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinDooley View Post
    but to tell someone to not bother to learn to use sights is negligent and dangerous.
    Suggesting that one saves his $$$ on buying night sights is a far cry from telling him "not bother to learn to use sights" Please!
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  14. #29
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    One benefit to night sites that seems to get completely overlooked by people is this:

    The ability to locate my gun in the dark!

    I have found at night when awakened to, "Honey, did you hear? Check it out please," I don't want to turn on a light, but I can see where my gun is in the drawer quickly and easily.

    I do agree that an artificial light source is more important than night sites, but why not have both? As was said before, they definitely don't 'hurt' to have in any situation.

    Again, I love that I can see my guns so clearly in a drawer or my safe in total darkness. Then pick it up, and use the Insight WX150 mounted on the rail as needed.

  15. #30
    Member Array swatspyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarGunGuy View Post
    One benefit to night sites that seems to get completely overlooked by people is this:

    The ability to locate my gun in the dark!

    I have found at night when awakened to, "Honey, did you hear? Check it out please," I don't want to turn on a light, but I can see where my gun is in the drawer quickly and easily.

    I do agree that an artificial light source is more important than night sites, but why not have both? As was said before, they definitely don't 'hurt' to have in any situation.

    Again, I love that I can see my guns so clearly in a drawer or my safe in total darkness. Then pick it up, and use the Insight WX150 mounted on the rail as needed.
    What about the guy that is hiding in the dark and can see you, or technically the 3 bright green dots on your firearm?

    Just something to think about.

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