There is a shopping complex near me that has about 20 stores. It is basically one big parking lot with stores all around. At each and every entrance to the parking lot there is a No Gun sign that says NO WEAPONS ON THESE PREMISES.
Is this sign legal? Can they do that? I guess it is their property so they can ban guns from the whole area if they want but they didn't even leave it up the the individual stores. (My walmart is in there )
Also raises the question about firearms in your car. I know they'll never know if its in there or not.
I thought Parking lots were still considered "roads" or something. I know you can get a ticket for speeding in a parking lot or wreckless driving. So if it's "public" they shouldn't be allowed to ban things.
I'm pretty sure they can... but it would be unenforceable. Out of curiosity, where is this shopping center if you don't mind saying... if you do, please ignore the question.
I know the area as well. Individual stores aren't posted. It is on a small sign posted at every driveway entrance into the complex. If you aren't looking for it, it is very easy to miss.
The whole complex is most likely privately owned, including the parking lot. The stores probably just lease the spaces. And yes, they can prohibit you from carrying while on their property. In OH it is the owner's choice to allow or not to allow weapons.
Yes...lets just announce to any antigun nuts that might browse this forum that WE are the types to pretend the signs arent there even if we know they are....and even if we do acknowledge them we're going to ignore them anyway.
This is the sort of advice that makes us all look bad...
Having the firearm secured in your vehicle in the parking lot would only be civil trespass.
They'd have to KNOW it was there AND ask you to leave. If asked to leave, you must do so, lest you be subject to arrest for criminal trespass.
Crocker Park in Westlake and Great Northern Mall in North Olmsted are the same way. If you put the gun in the glovebox before you go there, there's no way for them to know and no reason for them to ask you to leave.
In Ohio disobeying a no gun sign is a misdemeanor.
What if I'm in an accident in the parking lot. When the police come I have to (by law) declare my CCW. Then he knows I have my firearm and can therefore charge me with the crime if he wanted to.
As unlikely as it is. Its still a possibility. And we at DC try to prepare for everything.
What if I'm in an accident in the parking lot. When the police come I have to (by law) declare my CCW. Then he knows I have my firearm and can therefore charge me with the crime if he wanted to.
As unlikely as it is. Its still a possibility. And we at DC try to prepare for everything.
Perhaps list some/most of the stores here and we can inform each of the stores that we will not be shopping there due to the signs posted. Perhaps enough of us will get enough of the stores to complain to the property owners and have the signs removed?
(3) (a) Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.
If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.
Ok, So I answered my own question about the parking lot.
The law says knowingly so you could feign innocence but its probly not a good idea to lie to the police.
(3) (a) Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.
If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.
Ok, So I answered my own question about the parking lot.
Perhaps list some/most of the stores here and we can inform each of the stores that we will not be shopping there due to the signs posted. Perhaps enough of us will get enough of the stores to complain to the property owners and have the signs removed?
Just to set the record straight... I never see signs posted on the door but that does not mean I carry into banks, police, gov buildings and class D liquor license... Because all those are a concrete no-no; and is a great way to end up in doo doo. Know the law and pleading ignorance only works with places that would otherwise be OK to carry into.
i have seen this on stores before, what i did was to find every entry and found one that was not posted, i entered through that door. maybe there is an entrance that is the same way???
We should all do the right thing and respect their rights on their property. If someone thinks that pleading ignornace is acceptable once they know differently, then they need their moral compass calibrated.
We should all do the right thing and respect their rights on their property. If someone thinks that pleading ignornace is acceptable once they know differently, then they need their moral compass calibrated.
Sorry but... not going to happen. I'm not going to give up my main form of defense to make you "feel" good. If you find out I am carrying while in your store, ask me to leave, I will. Otherwise, no one is going to know and at least I know I have a better chance at seeing my family and going to sleep that night, if something were to happen.
This is why, in effect, we leave our CCW guns hidden but ready inside our cars; ready for potential or probable carjacking and parking lot attacks around Dayton, Ohio, where every other door has those gun-circle-slash gun-ban signs posted or painted upon them. Thus, we may hesitate to defend and protect and save those other unarmed or unharmed folks who are attacked and assaulted within these marked doors, unable to defend them or ourselves or anyone else while we are unarmed inside.
know before hand which store it is you need to do business with, call them up and have them meet you curb side to conduct your business..if they question you, explain it to them...or hire some high school kid to do your shopping for you..or shop else where.
There is a Cleveland real estate company called Stark Enterprises that owns a lot of shopping plazas. They post "no guns" signs at the parking lot entrances of all their properties. Looking at their web site, I see two properties in your area:
OfficeMax Plaza and West Market Plaza, both at the intersection of Route 18 and Cleveland-Massillon Road.
I'm not familiar enough with that area to know if the place you are talking about is one of those.
Letters and emails to Stark Enterprises about the signs are never answered.
Ironically the owner, Robert Stark, also owns properties in Israel and goes there regularly. Also, his son was serving with the Israeli Defense Forces as of a couple years ago. So here in the USA Stark is posting "no guns" signs and in Israel he passes by Israelis with M-16s slung over their shoulders.
Swatspyder: It doesn't make feel any better or worse. Our Constitution is based upon people's rights. I seriously doubt you would be very happy if someone violated your rights. It is a two way street. Some states, like OH, have penalties for what you are proposing. I'll take the high road on this one.
There is no Right to override the 2A in order to feel Warm and Fuzzy in the Bill of Rights. It is our Right that is being trampled on by allowing these signs.
But I do agree with you that feigning ignorance is wrong. You know in your mind that you are breaking the law. Therefore you are a criminal plain and simple. You are no better then the people you carry a gun to protect yourself from. If you are going to feign ignorance Fine that is your choice, But don't pretend your not breaking the Law. (Law in Ohio anyway)
Well, if your gun in concealed how can they know you are carrying one? And if by chance you need to pull that weapon to defend yourself who cares what they think. I think the only thing they can do is ask you to leave... if you don't they could get you for trespassing maybe.
If you are carrying concealed I don't see a problem unless there is a threat of you being shot or knifed by a bad guy who probably can't read signs or could care less. Your safety is a lot more important then that sign.
you should feel safe not carrying on property that is posted no guns. after all, the sign applies to the bad guys too. i'm sure they disarmed as well before entering any of the stores at that shopping center.
I second this. Ruger you said everything I was going to so I'll let it be. If we break the rules then it might come to the point where we're not allowed to carry. I'm surely not going to let that happen to me.
They can prohibit in the parking lot as long as you meet the states requirement for concealed carry or transport in a vehicle. This was upheld by the Supreme Court. The stores they can, but even then its only trespassing. Only in trouble if your caught, concealed is concealed right?
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