From Glock Talk Observations from actual shootings....

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Thread: From Glock Talk Observations from actual shootings....

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    From Glock Talk Observations from actual shootings....

    Mod's I don't know for sure where to post this so if it needs to be move that's fine.

    For all those who think my gun caliber is better for stopping a BG than yours here is a good post by Lookin4U on Glock Talk that you need to read.

    Observations from actual shootings.... - Glock Talk

    A miss is a miss even with a rifle.

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    Distinguished Member Array AKsrule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    For all those who think my gun caliber is better for stopping a BG than yours here is a good post by Lookin4U on Glock Talk that you need to read.

    Observations from actual shootings.... - Glock Talk.
    I read a couple pages.

    Apparently he considers himself the worlds greatest
    Forensic Pathologist and has singlehandedly determined that most bullets do nothing
    more than make holes.

    I didn't see any links to any documentation in his posts , did you?
    -------
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    "If I walk in the woods, I feel much more comfortable carrying a gun. What if you meet a bear in the woods that's going to attack you? You shoot it."
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    This is only his observations from actual shootings as 16 year veteran Police Officer and as a Crime Scene Investigator his last few years on the force.

    If you do not hit something vital it makes no difference what you use when it comes to lead bullets.

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    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    Toward the end of the thread they were flying the BS FLAG ON That guy
    H/D
    A Native Floridian = RARE


    IT'S OUR RIGHTS>THEY WANT TO WRONG
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    Senior Member Array cz75luver's Avatar
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    I think he was simply stating his observations. If you've grown up in a city or place where there are a lot of shootings, you'd know that many of the people that are shot survive. Heck, there was a case not too long ago where cops shot a guy something like six times with .40 S&W's in his own home and he lived.

    I'm of the belief that it all comes down to what is struck/destroyed. I think that's all he was saying.

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    Senior Member Array cz75luver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogdaddy View Post
    Toward the end of the thread they were flying the BS FLAG ON That guy
    H/D
    For Christ's sake, people were posting "coconut ballistics". Personally, I'd believe the doctor that backed up what the OP was saying versus the coconut warrior.

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    That thread was sad.

    The OP (LEO) was up front to start in his first paragraph stating that he was giving reflection on what his own direct experiences have been as not just a LEO but as specifically an assigned crime scene investigator.
    He stated his background in regard to specific application training and did not state that he was a physicist nor a firearms engineer or ballistics expert. He was clear about this in his words to start.

    He then goes on to relate what he has seen using anecdotes from his cases past to present as related not to ballistic design but how ballistic design as an _end result_ functions, as again to his view among the real world conditions and people he has investigated and witnessed. Deceased GGs, BGs and officer involved shootings (OIS).

    The OP was very clear to start about his intent, specific point of view, and end result analysis.

    But the haters and trouble maker came along.
    They directly mis-read some of his statements. Mis-construed others of his statements. Interjected some items that were not directly relevant or even relate-able to some of his specific statements.
    As well many of these people were flat out rude and unnecessarily jerky in their manner of response!
    You don't have to agree with a person but by not agreeing does not mean you have to be a jerk about stating your disagreement either!

    The OP gamely addressed some of the commentary from these people and initially maintained his cool which sadly is commendable among that threads atmosphere.
    But on the whole those people took what was a good thread and trashed it to the point that it was closed.

    Ironically DocGKR came in and _supported_ the OP in multiple recurring statements indicating that his man on the ground reports of anecdotes largely matched what he'd found as through lab testing and subject OIS incident reviews dating back 30 yrs. as per his own follow on citations.
    DocGKR posted as much four or five times in that thread. Then these same haters began attacking him, too (!).

    Next thing you know there are side tangents about .454 Casull and shooting people at point blank range with 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 rounds f .30-06. Diversions misconstruing what the OP had either actually stated and/or as was taken out of context to the over arching theme of his stated point.
    Ridiculous.

    A whole lot of demonstrated failure as toward reading comprehension.

    Last night I'd read the entire thread start to page ten closure.
    I walked away with three feelings:

    1) The OPs statements to my own knowledge and understanding widely were on point. Especially so his continual emphasis on human physiology and anatomy. Excellent. More of this should be featured and taught in general at civilian CCW courses...IMHO.
    It seems that many people think we are walking talking semi-hard sacks of gel, blood, and 'meat' hung on bone. Not true.
    As well a whole mess of people think that ballistic gelatin is a 1:1 reflection of the human body externally and internally. Most definitely not. It is simply a man made medium as for approximation toward that of organs...as minus skin, muscle, bone, exterior armor/clothing and devoid of air space which every human does in fact have among us. Also we are not a constant in density and thus internal friction surface, unlike that of ballistic gelatin.

    2) Street results very often do not match what occurs in and is expected as per labortory and/or clinical science.
    The real world has very many unknown and uncontrollable _variables_!

    3) Do not join that site.
    A lot of the vocal people their are mean spirited, narrow minded, and out right jerky. As well reading comprehension is not high there as demonstrated by that thread and much of the replys.

    In fact this last item was stated by many of it's own members within the thread advising the OP to join them at a better site away from the morons and jerks.

    I'd started to join just to make a comment about the lack of reading comprehension but then thought better.
    Why waste my time and energy? Then I see the thread was closed.

    I appreciated seeing the thread as for the OPs comments alone.
    Information and knowledge even as one, including myself, might not agree with 100% of all that was stated. As though anything less than 100% is a requirement. Where in life does anyone agree with anyone 100% on anything? Definitely not at gunfu forums!
    Hell people here cannot even agree 100% on what the 2A is or is not and that is among ourselves.

    I would though like to address one item of that thread as discussed.
    The guy that kept going on about .454 Casull as versus 9MM!

    The OP had stated that capacity as well as ability to handle the shot for multiples of COM shots toward striking and disabling vitals, not just one round fired into the body, was to his view a primary cause of death and by that _success_ toward an encounter. Without regard to the shooter and person shot being a GG or BG.

    The .454 guy got all bent as he focused in mindset exclusively on energy and 'power' as related to that chamber.
    That is well and good...But what happens if and when he has need to fire a second shot? Can he fire a second shot? How long doe it take for him to ride out the recoil and recover a sight picture upon firing his .454 Casull?
    Compare that to a person firing a full size 9MM as opined by the OP.

    That thread was just filled with so much sad it was ridiculous.
    Most importantly the results very much dissuade any other future persons who read that thread from posting their own life, living and professional anecdotes which also may in part or whole be useful as toward the community's general knowledge. Sad.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cz75luver View Post
    For Christ's sake, people were posting "coconut ballistics". Personally, I'd believe the doctor that backed up what the OP was saying versus the coconut warrior.
    I know, right!!

    That one guy posted up some stupid YouTube vids of coconuts being shot as a juxtaposition to that of a human head/skull.

    Come on man! Really? Seriously!
    :shakeshead:

    Again all kinds of sad, and stupid, in that thread.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
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    I dunno, Janq. It looked like the work of two guys that took that thread downhill at mach 4. I don't think you can indict the whole forum over those lunkheads. Though, you're right, they do seem to have a couple of lunkheads in most threads...<g>

    Personally, I found it very interesting--the observations on 12 ga. wounding absolutely stunned me.
    "What does Marcellus Wallace LOOK like?"

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yeah those two guys started the fire piggybacking off each other and then I'm gonna say a good 40% of the posts in there were snide remarks and commentary from haters & jerks. Maybe a bit less in count but a very noticeable minority.

    I too found it to be very interesting, though the shotgun item for me was not surprising.
    I was just glad to finally see someone write it out in so many words!

    But even with that the focus is to _STOP_.
    In all of his cases he cited to that end the threat did stop/was ended even as specifically death was not an associated result.
    Killing people is not the focus. If it were then we'd be running specialty slugs.

    To his credit his downfall was that on several items he went against what are commonly gospel and sacrosanct items such as the 12 ga. thing.
    Folks forget, or seemingly don't know, that gauge is just a measurement of weight as related to quantity in the form of capacity.

    Shotgun sizes have always been measured in a somewhat roundabout way. You would think that the "12" in a 12-gauge shotgun corresponds to some linear measurement -- maybe inches or centimeters. But that's not the case. "12-gauge" means you can make 12 lead balls, each of equal diameter to the gun barrel, out of 1 pound of lead. This originated in the days when you would buy lead by the pound to make your own ammo. The gauge told you how many rounds you could make for the gun from 1 pound of lead.



    The smaller the gauge number, the wider the barrel. The largest shotgun is a 4-gauge. The .410 shotgun, the smallest, is an exception to the rule: It's actually a .410-caliber -- it has a .41-inch barrel diameter.

    In general, the smaller the barrel diameter, the less "kick" or recoil the shooter feels from the gun. Many experts say that a 20-gauge shotgun is a good beginner's gun because it has relatively little recoil but fires more shot per shell than the smaller-diameter .410-caliber.

    Source - HowStuffWorks "How Shotguns Work"
    So much more to comment on toward this and that thread with the interjectors and jammers. Meh.... : \

    Still though I hope this doesn't dissuade others on the internet from posting similar same, although it likely will considering how rare these are as it is.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    That thread was sad.

    The OP (LEO) was up front to start in his first paragraph stating that he was giving reflection on what his own direct experiences have been as not just a LEO but as specifically an assigned crime scene investigator.
    He stated his background in regard to specific application training and did not state that he was a physicist nor a firearms engineer or ballistics expert. He was clear about this in his words to start.

    He then goes on to relate what he has seen using anecdotes from his cases past to present as related not to ballistic design but how ballistic design as an _end result_ functions, as again to his view among the real world conditions and people he has investigated and witnessed. Deceased GGs, BGs and officer involved shootings (OIS).

    The OP was very clear to start about his intent, specific point of view, and end result analysis.
    .
    .
    .
    Most importantly the results very much dissuade any other future persons who read that thread from posting their own life, living and professional anecdotes which also may in part or whole be useful as toward the community's general knowledge. Sad.

    - Janq
    I thought the guy was pretty straight forward. As Janq stated, OP acknowledged that he isn't an expert in anything right from the top, nor did he attempt to present his anecdotes as being scientifically rigorous and irrefutable. In spite of that disclosure, I found his comments to be insightful and no doubt spoken by a person who sees what he's described. I haven't finished reading the entire thread, nor will I. But I expected the OP to come under attack for speaking that which flies in the face of caliber dogma, held in high regard by folks that don't know squat. Not that I know more but I also freely admit it, and I certainly don't go around arguing with people online that have first hand knowledge of the effects of terminal ballistics on the body.

    All that I was able to glean just reaffirms my firm belief that the best way to emerge victorious from an armed confrontation is not to have one. And to keep firing until the threat is really down if you can't avoid the fight.
    2nd Amendment: because personal violence never makes an appointment.
    Evil resides in the heart of the individual, not in inanimate objects.
    Proud Member of GeorgiaCarry.Org

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    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    LMAO -- coconut ballistics. Why aren't I surprised?
    2nd Amendment: because personal violence never makes an appointment.
    Evil resides in the heart of the individual, not in inanimate objects.
    Proud Member of GeorgiaCarry.Org

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    An EXCELLENT thread. Unfortunately, it challenged the mindset of a few incredibly close-minded (and rude) individuals, and they felt obligated to undermine the observations posted. As the late, less-than-great Sen Moynihan once supposedly said - "you are entitled to your own opinion, but you aren't entitled to your own facts." The OP posted facts as he observed them. His observations are, of course, anecdotal, but there are enough of them to draw some general conclusions. These have been summed up several times in the thread, but these are my favorites:

    From DocGKR:
    As always, the most important things to focus on are:

    -- Cultivate a warrior mindset
    -- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
    -- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
    -- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
    From Police Marksman:
    I believe choosing a handgun strictly on possible terminal ballistics is a mistake. All the service calibers are too close in terminal ballistics to make a real difference in the out come of a gunfight.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    I just read the GT threat through again, and was again impressed with the observations, and they way they were presented. While I'm going to stick with high-end JHPs for my duty load, it is more for reasons of over-penetration concerns with FMJ and because I want a jagged wound channel rather than a smooth one - not because I think that extra fraction of an inch is going to make a huge difference in terminal performance...

    I encourage everyone to read it for what it is - a relatively large group of observations with specific constraints - and absorb it into your thinking. Also, disregard most of the rantings of "CanyonMan," who obviously has some serious reading comprehension issues (and a mind that is not only closed, but locked...and has apparently been rusted shut for quite some time).
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    It's 'honest' info (IMO) offered freely...and openly stated as such.

    Readers can make of it as they wish...it offers mostly confirmation on current info, and some new....take it and analyze it as you will but even the experts are not 100% in agreement on this stuff, so to beat the guy up for offering it is crummy. If you have criticism or questions, at least be civil.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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