"Citizen's Arrest"? - Page 6

"Citizen's Arrest"?

This is a discussion on "Citizen's Arrest"? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by SIXTO Just to settle a small piece of the debate here, a LP guy at a retail store detains, not arrests. They ...

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Thread: "Citizen's Arrest"?

  1. #76
    Member Array MikeFontenot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Just to settle a small piece of the debate here, a LP guy at a retail store detains, not arrests. They do not transport anybody from the store premises against their will.
    Well, if you carefully read the section of Colorado law that Intrepid quoted, you can see that what he is doing in his job IS arresting...in Colorado at least, "arresting" doesn't imply that the perp is transported off the property, or that the perp is verbally "charged" with anything. Of course, after the fact, the "arrestor" may well have to justify his belief that a particular offense was being committed by the perp, and that the "arrestor" used reasonable force to "arrest" the perp.
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO
    I'd also bet that a lot of the detaining that they do is a voluntary basis. They might not tell the suspect that, but their is no requirement for them to.
    Can you comment on that, Intrepid? Have you ever had a perp "resist" being detained in your office? If so, what did you do?

    MIke Fontenot


  2. #77
    Member Array Intrepid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Just to settle a small piece of the debate here, a LP guy at a retail store detains, not arrests. They do not transport anybody from the store premises against their will.

    I'd also bet that a lot of the detaining that they do is a voluntary basis. They might not tell the suspect that, but their is no requirement for them to.
    That is correct, most of my shoplifters come back voluntarily. My company does allow use of reasonable force, but I try not to, especially if I am by myself. A lot of the time I don't even have to touch the shoplifter because they follow verbal directions.

    Mike, I have had shoplifters resist, usually it is upon initial contact. Most of the time there is more than one of us on duty, so we can quickly gain control and place them into handcuffs.
    Last edited by Intrepid; February 10th, 2010 at 05:28 PM. Reason: Answered Mike's question.

  3. #78
    Member Array rico68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Just to settle a small piece of the debate here, a LP guy at a retail store detains, not arrests. They do not transport anybody from the store premises against their will.
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeFontenot View Post
    Well, if you carefully read the section of Colorado law that Intrepid quoted, you can see that what he is doing in his job IS arresting...in Colorado at least, "arresting" doesn't imply that the perp is transported off the property, or that the perp is verbally "charged" with anything.
    Yep. Same in this state. It is in effect an arrest. No one calls it that, because that sounds scary. But by the statute, it's an arrest. Transporting has nothing to do with it (here).

  4. #79
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeFontenot View Post
    Well, if you carefully read the section of Colorado law that Intrepid quoted, you can see that what he is doing in his job IS arresting...
    Arrest as in to stop, cease, make unable to continue.
    Synonymous with to hold or to detain.

    Base definition
    Arrest - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    As a noun
    Arrest[2] - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    As a transitive verb
    Arrest[1] - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    Being held is not to be charged.

    As law enforcement application goes most typically to be 'arrested' as in placed 'under arrest' is to be charged.
    To not be arrested/placed under arrest but held is to be detained.

    Reading the Colorado law as posted details just this in so many words at the cited 18-4-407.

    Statute sources as in full for those who like me prefer to read them in entirety for full contextual understanding:

    * 18-1-707. Use of physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape.
    Michie's Legal Resources

    * 18-4-407. Questioning of person suspected of theft without liability.
    Michie's Legal Resources

    As in context to 'Citizens Arrest' activity the term "arrest" is to detain as by applied legal intent.
    Civilian citizens have no power to charge as is the more common application for the CA term as in context to law and enforcement.

    People as non-LEO civilians would be mistaken to think that they can charge some one with a crime, or to think/assume that loss prevention personnel such as Intrepid in CO have legal power to do same.

    Equally a persons suspected of a crime and being 'arrested' by some citizen is not by statute required to recognize said citizen persons authority, unlike that of a law enforcement officer (!).
    The BG can tell the citizen arrestee, and/or Intrepid as a loss prevention officer, to go pound sand and be well within his civil rights to depart. If blocked or impeded in some way that person has right to do so as against civilian effort to 'arrest' (!).

    So there you are and now what?
    Immovable force as against unstoppable object!

    Only one (civilian) has very little statute protection to support their actions and with that little judicial immunity with no civil immunity. Unlike that of a law enforcement officer.
    While the other ('suspect') has full civil right as behind him to choose to not stay as in leave, and if attempt to detain in a manner that is not to said persons comfort they are equally empowered by CO statute to employ force and if threatened to such a degree to warrant it even lethal force...too, just like you the citizen arrester.

    Not so much though is the case as being detained muchless arrested for real as by a LEO.
    Something folk would be advised to consider, as before thinking they are legally 'allowed' to run off and pull a Gomer Pyle.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #80
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    Yes, but using Interpid as an example, only operates on the private property of his employer. He cannot remove that person against there will from the property. He can detain, as an agent of the property owner.
    He does have to call LEO for a formal arrest and ride to jail. Interpid cannot do that. He simply detains.

    As far as the difference Jang did a much better job explaining it than I would.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  6. #81
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    "You're under arrest!" Three words I will not speak. Leave it to the professionals.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  7. #82
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    I'm not arresting anyone until I grow a better mustache.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  8. #83
    Member Array rico68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Yes, but using Interpid as an example, only operates on the private property of his employer. He cannot remove that person against there will from the property. He can detain, as an agent of the property owner.
    He does have to call LEO for a formal arrest and ride to jail. Interpid cannot do that. He simply detains.

    As far as the difference Jang did a much better job explaining it than I would.
    This is not the case in all states. For practical purposes, it's probably going to play out that way. But that is not the legal requirement. In some states a private citizen has the legal standing to remove someone from the location and personally deliver the person.
    MN 629.39 PRIVATE PERSON MAKING ARREST TO DELIVER ARRESTEE TO JUDGE OR PEACE OFFICER.

    A private person who arrests another for a public offense shall take the arrested person before a judge or to a peace officer without unnecessary delay. If a person arrested escapes, the person from whose custody the person has escaped may immediately pursue and retake the escapee, at any time and in any place in the state. For that purpose, the pursuer may break open any door or window of a dwelling house if the pursuer informs the escapee of the intent to arrest the escapee and the pursuer is refused admittance.

  9. #84
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Rico,

    SIXTO was responding to the specific statute being discussed by that of Colrado as posted by Intrepid.
    Context.

    It's a known that the law varys state to state on most everything including that of citizens arrest.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #85
    Member Array MikeFontenot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    The BG can tell the citizen arrestor [...] to go pound sand and be well within his civil rights to depart. If blocked or impeded in some way that person has right to do so as against civilian effort to 'arrest' (!).
    [...]
    While the other ('suspect') has full civil right as behind him to choose to not stay as in leave, and if attempt to detain in a manner that is not to said persons comfort they are equally empowered by CO statute to employ force and if threatened to such a degree to warrant it even lethal force...too, just like you the citizen arrester.
    I think if any of us think that the perp is going to much care if he has a legal right to resist arrest or not, we are sorely deluding ourselves. Perps obviously don't spend a lot of time trying to obey laws.

    Anyone who decides to use force against a perp needs to understand that the perp may very well then decide to further escalate his attack. If you are not prepared for that possibility, you shouldn't ever try to use force at all.

    Mike Fontenot

  11. #86
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    Thanks Jang, that is what I was talking about. I'm not sure how or why MN got into the mix of this thread.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  12. #87
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeFontenot View Post
    ...Anyone who decides to use force against a perp needs to understand that the perp may very well then decide to further escalate his attack. If you are not prepared for that possibility, you shouldn't ever try to use force at all.
    Which is exactly my point.

    It does not matter at all if the person being detained ('arrested') by attempt of a citizen knows his/her rights or not.
    The bottom line though is that be knowledgeable or not they do have a civil right to both choose to not comply with requests/demands of a so called citizen arrester AND they also have a right to resist such an attempt as well.

    Until a LEO shows up with real and actual powers as greater than detention, the attempting citizen arrester civilian would find themself to be dancing on Vaseline...Whether they know their 'Citizen Arrest' rights or not.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #88
    Member Array rico68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Thanks Jang, that is what I was talking about. I'm not sure how or why MN got into the mix of this thread.
    Sorry. I guess I've completely misread this thread.

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