Road Rage - Page 5

Road Rage

This is a discussion on Road Rage within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ccw9mm That's an assumption. Whether it truly was an instigation, escalation or ratcheting up of tensions and threat depends utterly on what ...

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  1. #61
    Member Array liljake82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    That's an assumption.

    Whether it truly was an instigation, escalation or ratcheting up of tensions and threat depends utterly on what was said, how it was said, what the intentions were. Mere contact does not constitute a crime.

    We do NOT know what was said, how it was said, the intention of what was said. He might well be a saint, given the fact that he willingly left his young child in the car while he went to speak with the driver. He might well be the devil in blue jeans. Can't know, without knowing more.

    Yes, many people aggressively respond to such contact. Those three men did. But that in and of itself means nothing, in regards to the actions of the parent. The simple fact that the parent went up to speak to the other driver cannot, by itself, be the only relevant fact in concluding there was escalation/instigation.

    Certainly, the other three men didn't take the contact well at all. But it's an assumption, at this point, to take such contact as illegal, criminal escalation and instigation. Depends utterly on the totality of the circumstances.

    Some simple questions, lest our assumptions get the better of us:

    1. If the parent was so livid and desirous of escalating things against three males in the other car, why would he leave his child?

    2. If the parent was so livid and desirous of escalating things, why did 18 witnesses corroborate each other and support the idea that it was the three males who escalated things?

    3. If the parent was such a deadly threat to everyone, why was released without charges?


    Note: Again, I'm not supporting or defending the actions of any of the players in this incident. I'm simply posing questions that might aid in our ability to see through assumptions and biases, to consider what might really be true in this case. I personally don't know, as I wasn't there.
    You can't tell me with a straight face the guy walked up to their car and said "Excuse me gentlemen but you almost ran me off the road back there. Everything is fine now and I just wanted to wish you goodnight. Maybe you could come over to my superbowl party or weekly poker game?"
    Either you are a weapon and your gun is a tool or your gun is a weapon and you are the tool.
    ----- FMD


  2. #62
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    I think a few of you missed the follow up news reports a few posts back. According to witnesses it seems pleasantries weren't exchanged.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shpadoinkel View Post
    Witnesses said the suspect, who is from Detroit and works as a planner for DTE Energy, told police he stopped for a traffic signal at the turnaround at Groesbeck and got out of his car. He yelled at the suspects to knock it off, witnesses said.
    Doesn't seem to be any threats but IMHO it's still an aggressive act to confront the other driver. Just like how I can't go hunt someone down that broke into my house. I can hold my ground and protect myself but I can't go looking for trouble (at least here in my state). My seeking out the bag guy then makes me the aggressor.

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liljake82 View Post
    You can't tell me with a straight face ...
    I'm not telling you or anyone else anything. I'm simply suggesting that our "knowledge" of what happened is specious, that all we have are assumptions, that from our vantage point we have bupkis, and that the absence of fact isn't proof of anything. That is all I'm suggesting. Nothing more.

    So, about those questions. Tough little buggers, eh? Not easily answered by blindly assuming anything.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  4. #64
    Member Array schwaa's Avatar
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    He didnt start it, he got run off the road. Sure he may have had some choice words with the 3, but who knonws what he said. He never initiated physical violence. I beleive he was in he right to defend himself. 3 vs 1 with obvious intent to do harm as they were trying to remove him from the car. He could have driven away, but he didnt. He chose to stand his ground. I would say +1 for the GG, but I dont beleive this situation ended in the best way. It easily could have ended by just driving away.

    Then again, WE WERE NOT THERE.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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  5. #65
    Member Array Alf87's Avatar
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    Well it's obvious now from the reports above and what the witnesses say that the father escalated the situation by getting out of his vehicle and yelling at them to knock it off. If that one act hadn't occured, he wouldn't have gotten himself into a situation to defend his family with deadly force.

    Was he justified in the shooting based soley on the struggle with the men in his car while defending his kids? More then likely, Yes.

    Could the shooting have not occured without the father confronting the men at the light? More then likely, Yes.

    One thing that hasn't been mentioned at all is that I sure hope the kids will be ok after this incident.

  6. #66
    Member Array liljake82's Avatar
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    #1 I suggest the reason he left the kids in the car was because he was PO'd. (in light of fastk9dad's post he didn't leave them alone)

    #2 There were 2 escalations. 1 when the driver exited the vehical. 1 when the guys came after him. Both were corroberated by witnesses.

    #3 Maybe they're waiting on complaints for criminal charges. Maybe they're still trying to sort things out. Maybe they won't charge him. As others have said the guy is still open for civil suits.

    He had the chance to turn the other cheek but didn't choose to. He will be painted as a gun toting NRA cowboy looking for a fight. I hope if the time comes I keep a cooler head.
    Either you are a weapon and your gun is a tool or your gun is a weapon and you are the tool.
    ----- FMD

  7. #67
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    I hope you guys are never on my jury. It sounds like one should never stand up for them self in any way shape or form according to you guys.
    Semper Fi

    Flame On

  8. #68
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    "The father of two young boys who said he fatally shot a 34-year-old Shelby Township man on Saturday because he was afraid for his life and the lives of his children has been released by Clinton Township police pending further investigation."

    What we do know from the except from the news article above is that there is going to be a further investigation so this gentleman is not yet out of the woods with the police. It would probably be a pretty safe bet that some sort of civil action will occur also. Unfortunate incident that he will likely regret mentally and financially for the rest of his life even if he somehow avoids criminal prosecution.
    NRA life member.

  9. #69
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liljake82 View Post
    #1 I suggest the reason he left the kids in the car was because he was PO'd. (in light of fastk9dad's post he didn't leave them alone)
    That's an assumption.

    #2 There were 2 escalations. 1 when the driver exited the vehical. 1 when the guys came after him. Both were corroberated by witnesses.
    Assumption, that the first was an escalation of anything, though it was obviously inferred as that by the three men. But, hell, glancing "wrong" at someone in the hood can be construed as a death threat, by criminal idiots there. What was corroborated was the m movements. Nobody knows but the actors what was said at the window by the parent. So, intent and suggestions of escalation are assumptions.

    #3 Maybe they're waiting on complaints for criminal charges. Maybe they're still trying to sort things out. Maybe they won't charge him. As others have said the guy is still open for civil suits. [/quote]
    True.

    He had the chance to turn the other cheek but didn't choose to.
    "Turning the other cheek" is a phrase folks use when people see to respond similarly (as in, tit-for-tat). We here do not know what was said by the parent at the window of the other car. The contact could have been seeking to calm the situation, or seeking to escalate. We simply do not know which. To choose is to assume without any real facts other than what was seen.

    He will be painted as a gun toting NRA cowboy looking for a fight.
    Perhaps he will.

    I hope if the time comes I keep a cooler head.
    Assumption, that the parent's head was not "cool." All depends on the particulars, WHICH WE DO NOT HAVE. That's all I'm sayin'. Nothing more.

    Our assumptions and biases might well turn out to be correct. And, in the end, assumptions might well get him strung up by the toes. That, itself, is a lesson for us all, in more ways than one.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #70
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwaa View Post
    He didnt start it, he got run off the road. Sure he may have had some choice words with the 3, but who knonws what he said. He never initiated physical violence. I beleive he was in he right to defend himself. 3 vs 1 with obvious intent to do harm as they were trying to remove him from the car. He could have driven away, but he didnt. He chose to stand his ground. I would say +1 for the GG, but I dont beleive this situation ended in the best way. It easily could have ended by just driving away.

    Then again, WE WERE NOT THERE.
    i dont think anyone is disagreeing with the fact that he was right to defend himself...but if he had not confronted tham he may not have had to "stand his ground"....and a court may very well use the fact that he chose to go out of his way to confront 3 guys as an invitation to allow him to "stand his ground"...

    he didnt initiate physical violence....but his actions may have instigated it....

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    I hope you guys are never on my jury. It sounds like one should never stand up for them self in any way shape or form according to you guys.
    Semper Fi

    Flame On

    He has the right to defend himself. I just said it's lucky he wasn't charged as he should never have gotten out of his vehicle and never put himself in that situation.

  12. #72
    Member Array bwhunter65's Avatar
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    I think the guy was lucky he didn't instigate it but when he followed and got out of the car and had words he is now in the instigator and did not help the situation again when he left them guys to go to his car and they other guys go after him they are now the problem. If any of these guys kept there cool everyone would of went home. They all made bad choices and just because the guy with the gun dint make the last mistake he goes home. Imagine if the guy who almost got ran off the road got shot for going to the other drives car would he have been justified guy comes to his window all pissed what if he saw his gun and he had one. We weren't there could of been an honest mistake could of been a jerk and thought it was funny I think this all went down badly. he should of just got his plates and called it in. He dint start the fire put he sure as heck added some fuel Just my two cents.
    Uly
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  13. #73
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    I hope you guys are never on my jury. It sounds like one should never stand up for them self in any way shape or form according to you guys.
    Semper Fi

    Flame On
    if nothing else it should give you food for thought when considering "standing up for yourself" in certain situations...what do you suppose you would stand to gain by approaching the other persons vehicle and yelling at him as has been stated?...macho points?...

    now lets turn it around...just for a moment humor me...this incident happens to you...you approach the bad drivers vehicle yelling...he produces a gun....you think your wife is gonna be telling your kids that daddy was killed while they watched because he was rightfully 'standing up for himself"?...

    its not a flame...its advice...you have nothing to gain...why take it to that level...you have a better chance of retaliation by calling the police and reporting a possiible drunk driver...he'll get stopped and probably have to pass field sobriety while you get to go home comfortably and enjoy the rest of the evening with your kids...and dont even think about labelling it cowardly...not looking for a fight takes more balls than looking for one...

    and you should be hoping you never have to face a jury...period...regardless of whether we are on it or not...

  14. #74
    Member Array ZombieShoot's Avatar
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    Stupid to get out of his car.

  15. #75
    Member Array liljake82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    That's an assumption.


    Assumption, that the first was an escalation of anything, though it was obviously inferred as that by the three men. But, hell, glancing "wrong" at someone in the hood can be construed as a death threat, by criminal idiots there. What was corroborated was the m movements. Nobody knows but the actors what was said at the window by the parent. So, intent and suggestions of escalation are assumptions.

    #3 Maybe they're waiting on complaints for criminal charges. Maybe they're still trying to sort things out. Maybe they won't charge him. As others have said the guy is still open for civil suits.
    True.



    "Turning the other cheek" is a phrase folks use when people see to respond similarly (as in, tit-for-tat). We here do not know what was said by the parent at the window of the other car. The contact could have been seeking to calm the situation, or seeking to escalate. We simply do not know which. To choose is to assume without any real facts other than what was seen.



    Perhaps he will.



    Assumption, that the parent's head was not "cool." All depends on the particulars, WHICH WE DO NOT HAVE. That's all I'm sayin'. Nothing more.

    Our assumptions and biases might well turn out to be correct. And, in the end, assumptions might well get him strung up by the toes. That, itself, is a lesson for us all, in more ways than one.[/QUOTE]

    I wouldn't convict the guy I'm just saying if he'd kept his mouth shut he wouldn't have had to shoot anyone.

    #2 is not assumption it is fact.

    I assume the sun will come up tomorrow but that doesn't mean there is a chance it won't.

    I am getting my CCW so I can protect myself and my family, not so I can play tough guy without getting my butt kicked. I prefer to let sleeping dogs lie.
    Either you are a weapon and your gun is a tool or your gun is a weapon and you are the tool.
    ----- FMD

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