Does Open Carry Threaten Concealed Carry? - Page 4

Does Open Carry Threaten Concealed Carry?

This is a discussion on Does Open Carry Threaten Concealed Carry? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by OldLincoln Does Open Carry Threaten Concealed Carry? I believe just the opposite. Just look at Texas and Florida as an example. But ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldLincoln View Post
    Does Open Carry Threaten Concealed Carry?
    I believe just the opposite. Just look at Texas and Florida as an example. But hey, I'm biased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Calley View Post
    In many cases you are correct, the public is oblivious to much that goes on around them; except when some OC'ers who try, for whatever reason, to make their weapon and rig as noticeable and as obvious as possible.
    My ears are ringing... I've been accused of this.

    Kevin Jensen
    Utah State Researcher,
    www.opencarry.org


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Bill, I OC a G19 in a Serpa holster much like SGT's. It's amazing how few people notice. I have gotten a couple of incidents dealing with employees. But by far the good interactions outweigh the bad. Don't know for sure that I have scared anyone in the last year, well except for the punks who were up to no good in a WM parking lot. But I have educated somewhere between 15-20 people as a conservative estimate. No arguments, no screaming stampedes of soccer moms, no crying babies, nada.

    And OC is the constitutionally protected right in NC while CC is the legislated privilege. State v Speller.

    "The distinction between the "right to keep and bear arms," and "the practice of carrying concealed weapons" is plainly observed in the constitution of this state. The first, it is declared, shall not be infringed, while the latter may be prohibited. Art. I, sec. 24."

    State v Kerner further expanded the above statement to openly carried firearms.

    "This constitutional guaranty was construed in State v. Speller, 86 N.C. 697, in which it was held that the distinction was between the "right to keep and bear arms" and the "practice of carrying concealed weapons." The former is a sacred right based upon the experience of the ages in order that the people may be accustomed to bear arms and ready to use them for the protection of their liberties or their country when occasion serves. The provision against carrying them concealed was to prevent assassinations or advantages taken by the lawless; i.e., against the abuse of the privilege."

    So by your reasoning, since we now have legislated CCP's there is no good reason to continue to exercise what we have a right to do in order to protect the privilege. The privilege supersedes the right? That's completely backwards. And bear in mind the state you are complaining about OC'ers IS NOT shall issue. Far, very far from it.

  3. #48
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    So by your reasoning, since we now have legislated CCP's there is no good reason to continue to exercise what we have a right to do in order to protect the privilege. The privilege supersedes the right? That's completely backwards. And bear in mind the state you are complaining about OC'ers IS NOT shall issue. Far, very far from it.

    Hi Chief Jason,

    Thanks for the input Chief. Yes, I fully realize that the right to keep and bear arms is a Constitutional right, and from what I have read this infers open carry only, but has no inherent right to concealed carry.

    And that is EXACTLY why we need to protect our concealed carry privileges so jealously, since they can be controlled, or completely banned, by legilative action.

    I am also not aware that I was referring, at all or in any way, to any specific state (such as NC) when I said that I feel that OC is a bad idea in Shall Issue CCW states; but only that in states with no Shall Issue laws, OC may prove to be a positive catalyst to help pass sensible CCW laws. Or it may not.

    Best,

    -Bill

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    Absolutely causes a negative reaction!
    Who is John Galt?

    Sometimes there's justice, sometimes there's just us...

  5. #50
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    OC is fine and all. I just don't think sheeple will understand when a bunch of people are around with guns in plain sight and no badges.

    I like CC also for other reasons too. For one thing an open carry holster (for me) tend to get in the way. Bumbing into things and such. Keeping a pistol tucked up against my body gives me more peace of mind then one hanging in the open. Its my preference. YMMV
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  6. #51
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    Nope…
    Anyway, I grew up in California and went on to become a LEO. Even way back then, it was a PITA for pagans to get a permit. BTW: Defense for your life is not 'necessarily' considered ‘just cause’ for most citizens to cc over there. As a lot of us already know, California’s economy is in the toilet, so the arrogant elitist attitude is fading. They are so hard up for money these days, they would do most anything. I believe if some pro-gun folks would offer to pay a tax to conceal carry, the bill may likely be approved.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
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  7. #52
    JD
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  8. #53
    JD
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    20+ posts removed, if your missing something odds are it was one of those 20something posts.

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Bill, sorry for the part you quoted. I got you confused with the OP. Did not realize it till later. My bad.

    As far as protecting CC, I'd fight tooth and nail for either in NC or anywhere else I was living.

    What I find interesting in the CC v OC debate is that otherwise pro gun folks get so wound up about OC'rs standing up for their rights. I can really think of no other group that expresses a right, and rank and file members get so angry about it. Most groups don't give .02 about what other folks think of them expressing a right. I think that division works against us as a whole FAR more than some of us expressing our rights by OC'ing.

  10. #55
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Bill, sorry for the part you quoted. I got you confused with the OP. Did not realize it till later. My bad.

    As far as protecting CC, I'd fight tooth and nail for either in NC or anywhere else I was living.

    What I find interesting in the CC v OC debate is that otherwise pro gun folks get so wound up about OC'rs standing up for their rights. I can really think of no other group that expresses a right, and rank and file members get so angry about it. Most groups don't give .02 about what other folks think of them expressing a right. I think that division works against us as a whole FAR more than some of us expressing our rights by OC'ing.
    I don't think its so much that as its the CC folks that don't like when a people react negitivly resulting in more sinage and new laws.

    As a CCW we are bound by more laws then you can shake a stick at and that results in some concern when you see a large movement in a state that has caused a huge negative reaction and groups like the Brady bunch advancing their agenda playing on the fears of people ignorant to current OC laws of the state. In some instances the anti gun people reap the benefits of the demonstration.

    I'm not against open carry I just think if you do to be smart about it... pictures like the one that had a holster with a website on it tell sheep that its not just a few guys hanging out... its similar to a tatoo... no matter what it says its the fact of having a tatoo that people will judge.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  11. #56
    Distinguished Member Array BlueNinjaGo's Avatar
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    I see both sides of the issue, but it's way too complicated for a "yes" or "no" answer. Some people will always freak out at the sight of a gun, holstered or not.

    I hope that people who initially freak out will eventually realize, "Wow, that guy's carrying a gun and not freaking out and shooting everyone."

    I hope those who OC, especially in states like California, make good impressions on people. Be nice to everyone and don't get an attitude if they try to yell or argue with you. Any sign of a temper isn't a good thing. Some far-left liberals see anyone who owns a gun as "rednecks" or "paranoid" or what have you. I think they need to realize that we're just regular people who want to be able to defend ourselves easier.

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    I believe open carry does threaton CC. The sheep are not used to seeing guns. Signs will be their answer.

    Keep it unseen and they won't know it's there.
    Whats the purpose of open carry/ It seems to stir some people up including the police. It also takes away your advantage of surprise. I guess it is accepted more in some states then others.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    I don't think its so much that as its the CC folks that don't like when a people react negitivly resulting in more sinage and new laws.
    Most of the serious arguments/ heated discussion I have been in about OC are with gun folks on gun boards, in gun, and pawn shops. Start paying attention when you get the chance. You might be surprised at how wound up gun folks get about it if they think, right or not, that it might mess with "their right to CC." That said, they are not the ones pushing for signs. Their pushing for folks not to OC period, in some cases.

    FWIW, I'm bound by most of the CC laws in NC when I OC.

    Do we really think we will sway the anti's either way? Do we think we are swaying the general public when they do not "see" anyone CC'ing? Is CC even real to the average, non gun owning, citizen? Does it make a point if noone see's it? If a husband answers a question in the woods, and his wife is not around, is he still wrong?

  14. #59
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G View Post
    Whats the purpose of open carry/ It seems to stir some people up including the police. It also takes away your advantage of surprise. I guess it is accepted more in some states then others.
    That is soooooo tpoic for another thread (like this one: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...stion-why.html), but I'll humor you.

    1: 100+ degrees? What cover garment?

    2: Cover garments impede draw.

    3: OWB is more comfortable.

    4: Deterrent factor out weighs element of surprise. IE if you OC they'd be stupid to mes with you so there's no need for the element of surprise.

    5: Can carry larger, higher capacity gun when concealment not an issue.

    etc, etc.

    But I digress...

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldLincoln View Post
    I live in CA and a group of open carry folks are upsetting a lot of folks not used to seeing it on the street.
    Yes, fearful and ignorant people can cause quite a ruckus. And such hateful responses can threaten the good things in life, sure.

    But I am of the opinion the premise is false, that carrying visibly does not overtly threaten the cause of carrying. Why? Because, the folks carrying their defensive tools are NOT causing the problem, as they are NOT engaging in acts of intimidation or threat. Rather, the problem is fear and ignorance.

    If anything, familiarity increases comfort level over time. But that requires education, and that requires an open mind. Can't have any of it without a reasonable, rational, open mind.

    What approach can work to increase the incidence of carrying without the fearful/ignorant types blowing sideways? I don't know. Ask them (the ones with the mental block who can't get around it). Short of a very expensive advertising campaign over years, I don't know of anything more effective than simply doing it, carrying, while showing the fearful that there's little to be feared. The more that upstanding people are seen carrying life-saving defensive tools and NOT spontaneously combusting, the more likely it's going to be that the fearful and ignorant in the population will see that such folks are nothing to be feared.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Calley View Post
    OC is a provocation, and scares the heck out of the average person. OC may turn-off MANY people who would not otherwise be against firearms (or even CC).
    A bad assumption, I think.

    A provocation is caused by the actor, not the viewer. But what you're referring to is the RESPONSE, in which perfectly legal, non-threatening, non-intimidating, non-criminal actions are seen by a viewer and where the viewer goes wonky. That the viewer claims to have been provoked is insufficient for provocation to exist. Claims don't make it so.

    This is like saying that driving a car provokes people to run scared, screaming, into the hills. As such, driving a car should be disallowed, 'cause it provokes too much bad blood. It's a perfectly legal, non-threatening, non-intimidating, non-criminal act, and yet because some people get scared the activity is bad? Malarkey.

    This is like saying that the open visibility of firearms and weaponry on policemen provokes people to be afraid of police. As such, open visibility on policemen should be banned. It's a perfectly legal, non-threatening, non-intimidating, non-criminal act, and yet because some people get scared the activity is bad? Baloney.

    The obvious problem is: fear and ignorance. Quite simply, the fear does not come from overt intimidating, threatening or criminal acts done by upstanding people. The ignorance probably comes handed down from prior generations in their families, but it can be cured.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; February 12th, 2010 at 01:55 PM. Reason: spelling
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