February 11th, 2010 05:42 PM
I hope this doesnt sound stupid!
I own a store in a strip mall, type shopping center. the walls are sheetrocked and my register is deep into the store, away frome large store front windows. My question is this, knowing a BG threatens with a weapon of some kind, there is really no place that gives me a good tactical advantage and 1 of 2 decent back stops. In order to have either one, it would put me out in the open. What would you do, keep cover and fire w/o a back drop, or expose yourself and hope you dont get killed trying to take the threat down with a back stop?
S&W M&P 9C
COLT DET. SPEC.
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck", Author un-known
February 11th, 2010 05:54 PM
That's not a stupid question...a tough one though. I'm not sure I have a difinitive answer. I'd post that question too in your situation. I guess if I had to pick one it would be the one that provided the least exposure and most cover. But not knowing the layout of your store makes me second guess that statement. The other side to that is if the location that provides the best cover, no backstop, has limited visibility of the entire space I might opt for less cover (exposed register location) if it allowed for better SA. The type of business would play into my decision as well. Store layout and aesthetics are important in retail....I would not want to harm the visual appeal of my business if it could be avoided.
February 11th, 2010 06:01 PM
Truthfully you wont get the answer until the time comes, (god forbid). If you find yourself in that situation you will have to act, planing dose help, but when it comes down to it you will act, and hope for the best. Having a backstop is the least of my worries, accuracy on the move and moving targets is the best training you can get, the only thing that would stop me from firing is a visible person directly in the line of fire. Once again it is a decision you'll make when the time comes.
Timid people sleep peacefully at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
February 11th, 2010 06:07 PM
Firstly, there is no such thing as a stupid question. Long ago I realized that if you do not ask you do not get an answer and sometimes the answer is very important. I would suggest you have the police come into your store and try to give you advice on all of your concerns. In most towns, the police do have a proactive relationship with the businesses for all kinds of public safety issues. If that is not good enough and this sounds like it is very important in your case, see if the police or your local Chamber of Commerce might suggest a consultant who could provide you with a real concrete response.
February 11th, 2010 06:20 PM
Glaser Safety Slugs. Expensive but, hey...your potential location/scenario is exactly what they were designed for.
Scroll halfway down this linked page. Decent review.
I tested the very earliest Glasers (way back when) and I was satisfied.
I also remember the Glaser testing on some decently large sized live oinkers and the performance was satisfactory.
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Glaser Safety Slug
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Glaser Safety Slug is a frangible bullet made by Glaser Safety Slug, Inc., a small American ammunition company based in Sturgis, South Dakota (the same location as Cor-Bon). The company was founded in 1975 by Armin Glaser the same year as the Glaser Safety Slug was developed by Jack Canon.
The original round was a hand-made hollow point bullet filled with No. 12 birdshot (0.05") with a flat polymer cap. To improve ballistic performance, a polymer-tipped round ball was introduced in 1987, and the current compressed core form was first sold in 1988. The formulation of the polymer was also changed in 1994 to improve fragmentation reliability.
The company produces bullets in around twenty calibers, from .25 to .45 for pistols and from .223 to .30-06 for rifles. Each caliber comes in two forms, 'blue' and 'silver', the latter having greater penetrating power due to the use of No. 6 birdshot rather than No. 12.
The projectile in the cartridge is of a much lighter weight than more conventional types of cartridges and so the projectiles always exit the bore at significantly higher muzzle velocities. The current bullet has a core of very tightly packed lead pellets. On impact, the bullet fractures along manufactured stress lines in the jacket—imparting all the bullet's energy very quickly rather than over-penetrating a target or ricocheting on a miss. The extreme light weight and fragility of the projectile make it unsuitable for long range firing or against protected targets.
The bullet design can produce large shallow wounds in flesh while failing to pass through structural barriers thicker than drywall or sheet metal. However, the wounds produced by these cartridges fail to produce penetration of depth and quality in targets as do more conventional bullet designs that retain all or most of their mass in a single piece. Some suggest that this lack of penetration makes them and other frangible ammunition suitable for use in environments where there is concern that a bullet that misses its intended target or passes through its intended target might accidentally strike a non-enemy.
The United States Federal Air Marshals Service tested and used the Glaser Safety Slug extensively in the 1970s and 80s on board commercial passenger aircraft to defend against hijackers. Published reports indicate that Air Marshals are now issued SIG-Sauer P229 pistols with a 12 round capacity firing conventional jacketed hollow point ammunition in .357 SIG caliber.
Compared to conventional ammunition, the rounds are very expensive (on the order of 15 to 20 times more) because of their design. Some sources [who?] report that they are less accurate, and that wounds vary greatly depending on impact angles.
Use of these cartridges in hand guns for defense/combat situations is controversial because some [who?] argue that a handgun simply does not have the barrel length or powder capacity to accelerate the super light projectile to the point that it can reliably produce wounds deep enough to incapacitate a person.
Similarly, using these cartridges in a rifle against large game is controversial because of the poor penetration that is achieved. However, use of these cartridges in rifle calibers against human targets is less controversial because some[who?] argue that the cartridges do produce acceptably effective wounds in man-size targets, while adding a certain safety benefit.
February 11th, 2010 06:22 PM
the only obvious solution is to build a backstop
February 11th, 2010 06:23 PM
You're going to need to assess your own tactical situation on this one. Assess it every day....go through your possible scenarios every day before opening. It's your stage......set your stage as you will.
Originally Posted by joecs1
I know this is going to be difficult to comprehend, but at this time and with what you've portrayed, I'd recommend being a sheep behind the counter at the register, and doing whatever is necessary to survive the encounter. If that means giving up all of the money in the register, then do it. Your life is worth more than property. IMO...you're going about things in the wrong way. Yes...of course you'll need to know the time of your possible demise, and that only requires one simple response. Until that time arrives, I'm saying play it safe, and not gung ho. Again.....IMO, you're making things more complicated than they should be in your initial post. WHERE is the BG? Weapon of some kind? What is that? Assess what kind of weapon the BG has. Assess your vulnerability. Like I say....you can play things smart and simple, and be like a sheep and survive just as well as you can play Rambo when the time comes in certain circumstances. Best you can do is realize when those times are, and what you need to do, or shouldn't do.
What would you do, keep cover and fire w/o a back drop, or expose yourself and hope you dont get killed trying to take the threat down with a back stop?
The keywords that tipped me off in this thread pertained to the location of your register in the store. Again...........your money is not worth your life, and you should always protect your life before your money. God knows.....you can't take it with you.
February 11th, 2010 06:30 PM
February 11th, 2010 06:30 PM
I don't know how much you want to spend but you can go with bulletproof wall covering such as this.
Kevin LaRue & Associates, L.P.
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27
February 11th, 2010 06:57 PM
February 11th, 2010 07:27 PM
It's not a dumb question. I myself use frangible ammunition in such situations.
February 11th, 2010 07:57 PM
I agree with 'QKShooter' as the Glaser Safety Slug would my preferred choice in that venue. I still carry the silver tip variant depending on circumstances. This is ‘reportedly’ a typical result on soft tissue.
“Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
~ Stephen King
February 11th, 2010 07:58 PM
I'd keep cover, check out some of the ammo suggested and get a lot of practice at the distance likely to be encountered! Seriously, being able to consistently hit COM will take some of the backstop concern away for you.
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
February 11th, 2010 08:07 PM
Has anyone mentioned shotgun with non-wall-penetrating load?
Last edited by 9MMare; February 11th, 2010 at 08:11 PM.
Reason: added shotgun
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
February 11th, 2010 08:09 PM
Taurus Judge with .410 shotgun loaded. Not perfect, but better.
"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away." * "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight."
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