Bill To Allow Concealed Carry Without Permit Passes House(merged) - Page 7

Bill To Allow Concealed Carry Without Permit Passes House(merged)

This is a discussion on Bill To Allow Concealed Carry Without Permit Passes House(merged) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just wish MO would change the age of CCW......

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  1. #91
    Member Array Kenny256's Avatar
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    I just wish MO would change the age of CCW...
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I considered this myself, briefly. I thought, well, it's a quick way for a LEO to see that I'm not a threat, that my gun is legally carried.
    Quote Originally Posted by don7760 View Post
    The only bad thing about CC with no permit is that you have no resaprosaposty (i know that is spelled wrong) with other states if you have no permit for them to honor.

    Want a license for reciprocity or to show an LEO (and I would, until no license required was nationwide ) see post 36

    Even if the bill becomes law, Wyoming would still issue concealed-weapons permits to residents wishing to carry their firearms across state lines, as many other states require permits before allowing them to carry concealed weapons there, Quarberg said.
    Like Alaska.
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  3. #93
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterOfMass View Post
    A bill in Wyoming just passed the house that will allow concealed carry without a permit. Now that is pressing the 2nd Amendment issue to the max!
    I don't know much about Wyoming, but if they wanted to press the 2nd Amendment to the max, maybe they should start with their constitution:

    Article 1 Section 24:

    Right to Bear Arms

    The right of citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the state shall not be denied.

    The right to bear arms shall not be denied is a far cry from keep and bear shall not be infringed. I say they start with the constitution.

  4. #94
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, unlike during those long-gone good old days, we Civil War reenactors and other gun lovers and others know: Too few of our fellow and female citizens, especially children, have been taught how to properly and safely handle firearms, if only because they have no place to shoot outside of target ranges. They remember what they see on TV and on movie screens, keeping their fingers on triggers and pulling them as soon as you give them a gun. Our parents, uncles and their WWII-era peers grew up with guns and taught us how to do it right and safe, letting us roam around the country and along local rivers and streams with .22 rifles. We NEVER thought about shooting at cars or cows or barns or people! No problem having and handling firearms inside homes, but carrying them in public is a whole new and potentially-dangerous ball game; as we can see by simply scanning some of these gun-forum posts and online newspaper stories about gun accidents that get too much attention. This may be too wordy and windy but I mean it to be friendly.

  5. #95
    Distinguished Member Array PastorPack's Avatar
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    This debate is easily settled in this great free country we live in.

    All who feel this is BAD, and that more government regulation is good, just move to Illinois or New Jersey.

    to WY.
    God is love (1 John 4:8)

  6. #96
    Senior Member Array AZ Desertrat's Avatar
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    I am not worried about what happens to the criminals....they get what they deserve anyway....I just don't want some idiot in the legislature or senate screwing it up for the rest of us LEGAL guys.
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government--lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." --Patrick Henry

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  7. #97
    pax
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    Again, if you want to make the case that something terrible will happen, please start by showing how dangerous it's become in Alaska and Vermont -- and how many of their concealed carry people make the national news for boneheaded behavior.

    pax
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  8. #98
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    Again, if you want to make the case that something terrible will happen, please start by showing how dangerous it's become in Alaska and Vermont -- and how many of their concealed carry people make the national news for boneheaded behavior.

    pax
    I admire your patience.

  9. #99
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    The sky is falling!

    Blood in the streets!

    Wild west!

    Shoot-outs over parking spaces!

    ... errr, um.

    Listen, all you naysayers, I'll listen to your panic-mongering on one condition, and one condition only: if you are able to explain clearly how it is that Alaska and Vermont (both of which already have permitless carry) somehow don't have all the problems you're anticipating will happen in Wyoming when this passes.

    Oh, and while you're at it, you can explain the HUGE difference in accidental shooting rates between, say, Oregon's permit holders & Washington state's permit holders. Likewise the huge difference in negligent behavior and the huge number of permit holders behaving badly in Washington state that make national news. Oregon requires training before getting a carry permit, while Washington does not. No training required here whatsoever. Nobody here has even had to take so much as a minimal course in safe gun handling before getting a carry permit, so of course we have blood running in the streets, wild west behavior, shoot-outs over parking spaces, and all the rest -- right? And of course there's a huge difference between our crime rates and accidental shooting rates compared to Oregon, where training is required. Shouldn't be too hard to find that huge difference, if there is one.

    You could look it up. Report back when you have.

    pax

    I couldn't pass this sarcastic remark up. First of all, you need to read the responses Pax and see who made those remarks, some of those were not mine or others, in fact most were not mine, I just voiced my view, it's others who are adding the words, those responses were made to my comments, but that's ok, I can't expect everyone to keep track like I do, it's that military thing in me.

    Now that we have that cleared up, I was trying to let this go, but since you all asked, I'll just put up what I found for just a city in each State that has no permit requirement period from their largest city to one of comparable size in our State since comparing States would not be fair considering the Population difference. Just making a point is fair enough.

    BTW - Check out the national average in the charts also. It will speak just a little bit. Though the numbers might be one below on the Vermont Side for violent crimes, compare the city size to my city, there is also a 70,000+ population difference which more then makes up for that 1 difference. Might be more now due to the years difference also.

    The year is 2006, if you want different year, do you own homework, you asked for evidence or proof, you did not say the year mattered, here is my proof and this is what I got close to as I opened it up. Accept it or not, be adult about it or not, as I always told my troops, the choice is yours folks.

    Burlington, Vermont (VT) Wichita Falls, Texas (TX) Detailed Profiles - travel and real estate info, jobs, hotels, hospitals, weather, schools, crime, ...


    Crime Rate Comparison: Anchorage Vs. Austin


    Now if you and anyone else is just going to come back and say oh those numbers don't matter or the year is to old or this or that, then don't waste my time, you asked for proof, I gave it.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  10. #100
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Oh, as I said early (I guess people failed to read that also) it's a shame that people don't read more now a days, I guess their to busy listening to themselves instead of listening period or in this case reading.

    If the bill was waiting for my signature as as the last signature for passing or not. It would be approved.

    I like my guns and I'm Pro 2A all the way, but I think about things also.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian View Post
    ....

    BTW - Check out the national average in the charts also. It will speak just a little bit. The year is 2006, if you want different year, do you own homework, you asked for evidence or proof, you did not say the year mattered, here is my proof and this is what I got close to as I opened it up. Accept it or not, be adult about it or not, as I always told my troops, the choice is yours folks.
    .....

    Burlington, Vermont (VT) Wichita Falls, Texas (TX) Detailed Profiles - travel and real estate info, jobs, hotels, hospitals, weather, schools, crime, ...


    Crime Rate Comparison: Anchorage Vs. Austin


    Now if you and anyone else is just going to come back and say oh those numbers don't matter or the year is to old or this or that, then don't waste my time, you asked for proof, I gave it.
    Not by a long shot.

    The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

    One or two hand picked comparisons is not evidence.

    There is a continuum of requirements ranging from MD's (et al) "may issue", where nearly no average Joe can get a permit; through must issue (with a range of required loops to jump through) up to Alaska and Vermont where every average Joe, who does not have a past act that resulted in him (as an individual) losing his RKBA, can carry.

    There are crime statistics for them.

    Do a comparison.

    Feel free to to do regression analysis if you wish.

    But don't cheery pick anecdotal isolated cases.

    BTW -- for a easy across the board (non-scientific) look just compare the Brady bunch ranking of States with FBI crime statistics.

    If there were any strong relationship it should show up. It doesn't.
    Last edited by DaveH; February 17th, 2010 at 09:23 AM. Reason: Typo & reduce the quoted segment
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  12. #102
    Senior Member Array Adkjoe's Avatar
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    No one ever said Vermont was crime free. Where does it say that any of those stats are firearm related? I'll admit, I read the Burlington free press everyday and 99.9% of the crime here is sexual. Theirs a lot of horny backwoods folk I won't deny that. We have tops 1 murder a year, last year a guy shot himself with a shotgun, that was the only murder on paper for the whole year. Those stats you posted I won't deny but I can almost guarantee you there no more gun related than anywhere else you compare to, and if they are do you honestly think a permit system would help that? Do you think the people who commit those violent crimes would get a CCW so they could at least bring a gun to the crime scene legally? Your not making sense Guardian, I understand that you would pass the bill that's great but what are you trying to prove/say? Vermont has been without permits for a very long time, do you see people flocking here to buy guns? You can't even buy a gun in VT if your not a resident so that rules out the thugs crossing the borders to get guns. Having a permit system would have no effect on crime numbers. You still would obtain a gun the same way with or without a permit system Theirs still a background check and it's still illegal for criminals to own guns, the only difference is I don't have to fill out an application and send money to the state to have a pretty card for my wallet, that's it...period

    Having a permit system gives the BG an advantage, theirs a much better chance that he is going to find an unarmed victim. In VT knowing theirs a much better chance that people are carrying makes the stakes quite a bit higher for the BG. To me that's a much better deterrent.

    If you think about things like you say than tell me, what does a permit system do besides notify the government, cost citizens time and money, and make it harder for people to be and feel protected.

    you filled out an application and had a quick background check you must be responsible and mentally sane they gave you a card that says so right?

    I'll say again for the 10th time, To buy a pistol in Vermont you go through the same thing you would go through to get a CCW in most states it just takes half the time and doesn't cost you anything. If you can legally own a pistol why should it have to stay in your house in a drawer? If I pass a check to buy a pistol why do I have to pay more money and time to pass the same check again to be able to carry... it doesn't make sense.

    We could argue about this all day but theres no need you still have choices, you can move to IL,WI,NJ,NY,CA they will be happy to tell you what to do and help you run your life . I'll stay in Vermont with all the crazy gun carrying criminals and our outrageous no permit system where people shoot each other over parking spaces and for a spot in line at the store.

    I enjoy my time, money, and carrying a gun without a written permission slip from mom AKA the government.
    Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont allows anyone
    who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed without a permit of any kind.

  13. #103
    pax
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    Guardian,

    Wasn't addressing you personally, so dunno why you decided I was. Was addressing everyone in the thread who was so sure this was a bad idea.

    The reason I cite WA/OR for "training required" is because the two states are very similar in every other way: climate, demographics, politics, social attitudes. The same cannot be said of Austin and Anchorage. The only thing those two places have in common is city size, so too many variables to track that way.

    A more convincing argument would be to look at accidental shootings or criminal negligence involving firearms (which were my original point, not overall crime stats) in Alaska before and after the permitless carry law passed. That would eliminate the other, unrelated variables and get to the heart of the issue.

    pax
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  14. #104
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    I don't see it happening in other states...they're making too much money from the permit process. It would be like lowering taxes...it just doesn't happen (in these godforsaken Blue states, like Michigan, anyway!).
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    ....
    A more convincing argument would be to look at accidental shootings or criminal negligence involving firearms (which were my original point, not overall crime stats) in Alaska before and after the permitless carry law passed. That would eliminate the other, unrelated variables and get to the heart of the issue.

    pax
    Very good point.
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

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