Without good and sufficient reason

This is a discussion on Without good and sufficient reason within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by monk I copied this from Virginia's code's. What I'd like to know is, what's different about this than the reason to carry ...

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Thread: Without good and sufficient reason

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array swamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monk View Post
    I copied this from Virginia's code's. What I'd like to know is, what's different about this than the reason to carry always? For no other reason I have to get from the church doors to my car.

    18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

    (Code 1950, § 18.1-241; 1960, c. 358; 1962, c. 411; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)
    WOW... Perhaps it would be wise to search the recent church shootings and ask your representatives how you can protect yourself from people who dont obey the"no guns in church rule".

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  3. #32
    Member Array Passin' Through's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REVMAN View Post
    I always have a "good and sufficient" reason to carry.
    X2
    Try to keep a long story short. Pastor friend was leading a business meeting. Meeting became contentious. One of the members pulled a gun and shot through the roof. I asked him, what did you do. He said, I lay prone behind the big wooden pulpit...

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monk View Post
    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

    (Code 1950, § 18.1-241; 1960, c. 358; 1962, c. 411; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)
    Ok, so whats the penalty for a class 4 misdemeanor? $25 fine, no jail time, no loss of right to carry?

    If it's such a minor penalty I say carry, don't get caught. If you have to use your gun to save someones life maybe they will be gratefull enough to pay the fine.

    Of course I guess if you did use the gun, there's your proof of good and sufficient reason. sounds to me as if it's unenforcable as long as you don't get made.

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    ...Of course I guess if you did use the gun, there's your proof of good and sufficient reason...
    Wow - great observation. FINALLY a Catch-22 that works to our benefit!
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  6. #35
    Member Array mel5051's Avatar
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    Satisfy the Law and load up with Silver Bullets to place inside the BG's foolish enough to come in looking for a place to do Evil.
    Walther P99 AS full size 9mm
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    “The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall

  7. #36
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    "without good and sufficient reason" is one of those clauses that so often gets verdits thrown out or laws ruled unconstitutional for being to vague and inspecific by the higher courts.
    Who is or can determine what's "good and sufficient" unless that is spelled out in the law?
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array bsnow's Avatar
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    Defense of loved ones and self is enough reason for me.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. PSALM 144:1

    I CLING to my guns and my Bible.

  9. #38
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbiesdad View Post
    Let the people say "AMEN"
    I'll give this one a big Amen!
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnow View Post
    Does not history and the Bible teach us that good and sufficient reason has been around since, oh let me think, THE BEGINNING OF MAN! AS IN CAIN AND ABEL! sorry to yell but gee wizz.. i just can't even try to understand that kind of thinking, and praise the LORD i never will..I can can give you plenty of scriptures to back this up.
    Unfortunately, you will be tried in a court of law, not by your congregation. God may have final judgement, but only after the state puts you away for a number of years. Let's not try to confuse apples with oranges. It's a separation of church and state matter. Religious beliefs and laws of the state are not one and the same.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  11. #40
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    "Church is a body of people...not a building. BG don't seem to mind shooting at a church."

    Church=building. Congregation=body of people.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    Ok, so whats the penalty for a class 4 misdemeanor? $25 fine, no jail time, no loss of right to carry? sounds to me as if it's unenforcable as long as you don't get made.
    It was $25 but they applied inflation a few years ago.

    It's now $250 maximum. Still no jail time.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array bsnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Unfortunately, you will be tried in a court of law, not by your congregation. God may have final judgement, but only after the state puts you away for a number of years. Let's not try to confuse apples with oranges. It's a separation of church and state matter. Religious beliefs and laws of the state are not one and the same.
    I will say this and no more here. I happen to believe this great Nation was founded on the Bible pure and simple. I stand with that and live by it. I will not stir up something that is against our forum rules. Have a great day OldVet, stay safe..
    Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. PSALM 144:1

    I CLING to my guns and my Bible.

  14. #43
    Member Array J400Cali's Avatar
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    I had this discussion last night with my wife. She thought that guns shouldn't be allowed in places of worship. I said "Do you remember the church shooting we saw just a week ago or so!?!" She said "....yes but if they had metal detectors wouldn't that alarm people and deter them?" Needless to say she falls on the "anti" side of things. But I've seen some good quotes in this forum that I've been using, the two in particular being the "bad guys don't make appointments" and the one about believing in God, or not, and owning guns, or not.

  15. #44
    Ex Member Array swamp's Avatar
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    Christians Packing Guns
    by Jeff Quinn

    I have been asked on occasion how I can justify carrying a gun and being a Christian at the same time. This is always posed by someone who is trying to trip me up. It can either be a devout Christian asking the question, or a Hedonistic heathen; it doesn’t matter. There are those who believe, or choose to believe, that a Christian must be absolutely passive in all things. I am not just referring to those Christians who ride a horse and buggy. I have been asked about my views on self defense by Christians of most every denomination. Some are genuinely seeking an answer. Others just want to chastise me for not being as "faithful" as themselves.
    Many will accept every modern worldly convenience, but scoff at the idea of trying to protect oneself or the life of another. Their attitude seems to be that "God will protect us". They do have a valid point. God will protect us from the evils of this world, if he so chooses. I would rather have God on my side than a battery of Sidewinder missiles. Indeed, our God can protect us. However, that attitude would lead one to believe that he could walk through Harlem wearing a Ku Klux Klan outfit campaigning for George Wallace, and that "God will protect us". God could get you through that, but Jesus said that we should not tempt God. I tend to agree with his assessment.
    In the saddlebag of my motorcycle, I have a tiny cross with the inscription "Faith Moves Mountains", but I also ride in the mountains of East Tennessee and the western United States, and I make sure that my brakes are in good working order. I could just trust God to catch me, but again, that could be construed as tempting God. God gave us brakes on our motorcycles, and that is sufficient.
    God can indeed protect us. He can keep us safe on the highways, and he can also keep us safe from those who would intentionally do us harm. I am not speaking of politicians here, but of the evil that is in the souls of some human beings. Be certain in this; there is true evil in this world, and it sometimes manifests itself in the form of a low life predator. Being a Christian, it is difficult to believe that people, made of the same composition of flesh, bone, and blood as ourselves, could be truly evil. We have a Heavenly Father who has filled us with basic goodness, but Jesus said that there are those "who are of the synagogue of Satan".
    No sane individual would hesitate to defend himself from a rabid dog or a poisonous snake, but are the two-legged vipers of this world any better than an animal? An animal does that which comes naturally to him. Children of Satan do that which comes naturally to them: that being evil.
    Can God protect us from those who would do us harm? Absolutely. However, just as he has given us brakes to save us from the mountain, he has also given to us the tools necessary to defend ourselves, and those whom God has given to us. As Christian men, God not only allows us to protect our families, but he expects us to protect those whom he has placed in our care. This may seem contrary to the mandate for us to "turn the other cheek", and I too have pondered over this. It takes great strength to turn the other cheek as Jesus intended. That is not a commandment to be weak. Jesus did not operate from a position of weakness. In fact, nothing ever happened to him that he did not allow.
    God has entrusted us with the care of our brothers, whether those "brothers" be the children that he has given to us, or our wives, or our friends. We could set our children outside in the cold and trust that God would keep them warm. We could abandon them and trust that God will keep them fed. We could let them loose on the city streets or send them off for a week at Neverland, and trust that no sick, evil freak would abuse them. As Christians, we do not do these things to our children. God expects us to clothe them, feed them, and protect them from the evil that is inherent in this world. He gave to us the ability to buy clothes, grow food, build a fire, and to fight off those who would do us harm. In the time that Jesus walked the Earth in the form of man, the short sword was the state-of-the-art weapon. He told his followers that the time of living carefree was over, and that the time had come for those without a sword to "sell his garment and buy one".
    Today, we have better than a sword. We have more modern weapons at our disposal, and so does our enemy. Keeping a good rifle to defend one’s homestead and a reliable handgun to ward off evil that finds you when you least expect it is not only prudent, but expected. A Christian man is not mean, hateful, spiteful, or quick to anger. Neither is he weak. God never told us to let the evil in this world run over us like a train. He never told us to stand by idly as those whom he trusted to us are abused or killed. A Christian man who packs a gun does not look for trouble, and avoids it if at all possible. However, evil can seek you out.
    A well-armed man operates from a position of strength. He is less likely to have to fight than an unarmed man. The predators in this world look for easy prey. God did not put his people on this Earth to be prey for the sons of Satan. God expects us to stand up for what is right, and he gives us the tools with which to do so. When you defend the life of one of God’s children, you are defending good against evil. Use your good sense and God’s word to avoid trouble. If necessary, use the gun at your side to stand against it.

  16. #45
    Ex Member Array swamp's Avatar
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    The Bible and self protection:

    The Bible clearly speaks of the authorities having the right to protect the nation and for individuals to defend others, but as to self-defense, it is a little less clear. In order to discover the answer, we must rely on principles found in Scripture. There is one direct statement regarding this issue and that is “if the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there will be no blood on his account” (Exodus 22:2). Therefore, if someone breaks in to your home and you kill that person in self defense, then you are to be guiltless. There are few if any other direct statements approving of self defense. However, having this verse and an indirect principle revealed in the rest of Scripture of defending life in general, a person can have a clear conscious about defending themselves. Some of the verses that indicate the general principle of defending human life are Genesis 14:1-16; Numbers 25:16-18; Deuteronomy 19:11-12; Judges 3:15-30; Romans 13:1-5.

    Now there are the instances that seem to imply we should not defend ourselves. First there is the comment by Jesus that, “those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword” (Matthew 26:52). However, if you read further you will see that the issue is “that it must happen this way” (Matthew 26:54). Peter was attempting to use the sword to prevent the crucifixion. Had the crucifixion not happened salvation would not have been made available to any of us. You may say, but it still says “those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.“ True and Jesus also says, “whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matthew 5:39). We have a clear principle above that we are aloud to defend ourselves and use of violence to protect human life is considered just by God. There are numerous Scriptures that teach that. Yet there are these two that almost seem to contradict. First of all, if all those who live by the sword die by the sword then why didn’t Jesus confront the sin of a military officer, but commend him for his faith (Matthew 8:5-10)? If someone has a sin issue and are asking Jesus for help, he always confronts them. Why not here? When it seems that the Bible is contradicting itself, you must accept what the majority of Scripture says over the few verses that seem to contradict. There is likely something we are missing in those few verses.

    When Jesus said, “those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword,” that idea is tied to the context of preventing the will of God. We can only say with certainty that this passage teaches us that we should not attempt to use force to prevent the will of God. Also, in general the person who performs an act of violence, even justly, likely will have someone desiring to commit violence against him. Perhaps this is what Jesus means.

    Also, regarding the issue of turning the other cheek, I still have not entirely figured this one out. Now this can only apply to private individuals, because that is who He is speaking to. Throughout the Bible it is obvious that the authorities have the right to use the sword. But in regard to if we have the right to protect ourselves, this verse still seems to be a bit contradictory to the rest of the Bible. We must accept the whole message of the Bible over one verse. Again, there is something we are missing in this verse, because Jesus would not contradict the principles of Scripture. Perhaps it is explained in Ecclesiastes. There is “a time to kill, and a time to heal…a time to throw stones, and a time to gather stones…a time for war, and a time for peace (Ecclesiastes 3:3, 5, 8). Perhaps Jesus is speaking of the instances that we should show mercy. The general principle is that when being attacked and individual has a right to defend themselves, but we must do so with great caution. There can be consequences for our just actions. We should consider what the laws of the nation we life in are also. While actions may be just to God, they might not be to the earthly authorities. Not that we don’t obey God’s laws over mans, but we must be prepared to face consequences if this is the scenario.

    Resource tip: In order to discover the answer to a question like this it is good to have an exhaustive concordance. Also, a Bible Dictionary would be very helpful as well. First consider the words the Bible may use for this topic, even related words. Some of the words would be war, attack, sword, fight, stone, etc. Look up these words in a concordance to find the verses that contain these words. Add those verses to your study. Upon reading those verses, use your cross-reference (the numbers generally in the middle column of your Bible, that connect related verses to a verse on that page) to find related verses. Add those to your study. Then look up war, self defense, etc. in a Bible dictionary and see if it gives any more verses to your study that you have not found yet. Study all these verses and remember to get the context in which they are in. Once you have done this you should find the biblical principles as well as an answer to a question like this.

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