Without good and sufficient reason

This is a discussion on Without good and sufficient reason within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There was a similar thread about church shootings a couple weeks ago: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...sive-list.html The "good and sufficient" issue came up with some discussion as well....

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Thread: Without good and sufficient reason

  1. #46
    Member Array cz2075bd's Avatar
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    There was a similar thread about church shootings a couple weeks ago:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...sive-list.html

    The "good and sufficient" issue came up with some discussion as well.
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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamp View Post
    ...Also, regarding the issue of turning the other cheek, I still have not entirely figured this one out....
    My understanding is that a slap was more along the lines of an insult: we're supposed to bear up under those.

    Attacks? If I pray that God will protect me, can I in good faith be so arrogant as to demand that He protect me using someone else? I pray that God feed my family. While I've asked for a pile of gold, for some reason He doesn't seem to think this is a good idea for me... His normal procedure is to give us employment in order to answer my prayer that my family's needs be met. By the same token I submit that God is likely to use me to protect my family (including myself, as I will need to be at work tomorrow to feed them). He has seen fit to open my eyes to risks and has provided me with the resources to meet them should need be. I don't think it prudent (Scripturally) to limit God to using a cop or a lightning bolt to stop a bad guy.

    Were I single and was assured that I was called to do so, I could imagine putting myself at great risk for His glory (think Jim Elliot and the Auca Indians - look it up if you're curious). But not without a fax, when I am the likely means by which He will keep my family fed and clothed.
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  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    My understanding is that a slap was more along the lines of an insult: we're supposed to bear up under those.


    A slap is not a deadly force assault.

    At that time and in that culture, a slap on the face was simply an insult. Evil, yes; Deadly, no.

    An insult is not worth fighting over -- killing or being killed over. No Christian should respond to a simple evil with deadly force -- unless it is their job -- e.g. an LEO.

    Additionally, we should not do anything else to escalate the situation into a deadly encounter -- such as hitting back. Nothing here involves a threat to life. Jesus is just giving good tactical advice for situations, which do not call for the use of deadly force.

    Turn the other cheek, walk away w/o escalating the situation is the right thing to do -- without regard to any religious belief.
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  5. #49
    Ex Member Array swamp's Avatar
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    Your right a slap is an insult not an attack. My post containing that was not my words but on topic with most of it's cantent.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J400Cali View Post
    I had this discussion last night with my wife. She thought that guns shouldn't be allowed in places of worship. I said "Do you remember the church shooting we saw just a week ago or so!?!" She said "....yes but if they had metal detectors wouldn't that alarm people and deter them?" Needless to say she falls on the "anti" side of things. But I've seen some good quotes in this forum that I've been using, the two in particular being the "bad guys don't make appointments" and the one about believing in God, or not, and owning guns, or not.
    I don't need to attend church so bad as to have to go through a metal detector before I can sit down.

    Alarm them? To what? That the shooting is about to start, so they better 'get right with the Lord?'

    Deterrence. Yeah. No.
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  7. #51
    Ex Member Array swamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    I don't need to attend church so bad as to have to go through a metal detector before I can sit down.

    Alarm them? To what? That the shooting is about to start, so they better 'get right with the Lord?'

    Deterrence. Yeah. No.
    Oh that's so funny but true.

    This is just like a local electric supply company that has a sign by the door that says "No Guns Allowed in this Building". I of course carry anyway but ask the people behind the counter how they feel about that and do they know how at risk that puts them. They look at me with puzzle in their eye and I tell them that that sign tells them nobody in this building can protect themselves so this is the bet place to rob. The look on their face changes at that point.

    I mean why do cowards shoot up church's and "No Gun" malls; because it's safe for them.

  8. #52
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Back to original OP. The clause is CYA "lawyerese" to allow overide of everything else. If the Prosecuting Attorney wants to burn you, he uses the clause to do so. If he doesn't want to burn you, he uses the clause to let you go. It all depends on how his convictions record is going and how close he is to re-election or re-appointment. It is just allows the prosecutor an open career choice for your case. Don't get Law and Justice confused, one doesn't really have a whole lot to do with the other.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  9. #53
    Member Array One of Many's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    "Church is a body of people...not a building. BG don't seem to mind shooting at a church."

    Church=building. Congregation=body of people.
    The Church is the PEOPLE. The building is where the church MEETS.

    Mat 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

    Buildings do not have ears, but the PEOPLE inside the buildings do. Buildings do not speak, but people do.


    Act 5:11 And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

    Act 8:3 But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.

    Act 11:22 The news about them reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas off to Antioch.

    Act 11:26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

    Act 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king laid hands on some who belonged to the church in order to mistreat them.

    Act 12:5 So Peter was kept in the prison, but prayer for him was being made fervently by the church to God.

    Act 14:27 When they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

    Rom 16:5 also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia.



    There are many more references that can show that the church is made up of the believers, and is not the location or the building in which the church meets.

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