Is this the Industry Standard? - Page 2

Is this the Industry Standard?

This is a discussion on Is this the Industry Standard? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This incident happened about a year ago in my town. It shouldn't happen but unfortunately it did. I believe there is now a "no loaded ...

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Thread: Is this the Industry Standard?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    This incident happened about a year ago in my town. It shouldn't happen but unfortunately it did. I believe there is now a "no loaded weapons" sign on the door.

    Wednesday, February 13, 2008
    Man ‘complacent’ in accidental shooting

    By Paul Shockley
    Free Press Staff Writer
    GRAND JUNCTION — A sporting goods store employee and ex-cop told investigators he was complacent when he failed to check if a bullet remained inside a rifle, which accidentally fired and wounded a coworker.

    Richard Bacher, 56, said he “thought either Michael or Jerry would have already checked,” according to a search warrant affidavit drafted by an investigator with the Mesa County Sheriff’s Office.

    Michael Dean, 47, of Loma, took his .243-caliber rifle in for upgrades Saturday to Jerry’s Outdoor Sports, 507 30 Road.

    Jerry Stehman is the store’s owner.

    According to the affidavit, Dean first handed the weapon to Stehman.

    Stehman told investigators, “he did not open the firearm to see if it was loaded with ammunition, as he should have per Jerry’s Outdoor Sports policy.”

    Stehman then gave the rifle to Bacher.

    “Richard said he set the rifle upside down in the cradle holding devise and installed the fore stock,” the affidavit said. “Richard turned the rifle right side up in the cradle holding devise and installed the hammer extension.

    “Richard said, while the rifle was still in the holding devise, he pulled the hammer back to test the extension.

    “Richard said the hammer must have slipped from the grip of his thumb and fell forward, causing the rifle to fire,” according to the affidavit.

    Kenny Franklin, 53, of Grand Junction, a fellow employee at the store, was wounded once in the abdomen.

    Franklin was still listed in serious condition Tuesday at St. Mary’s Hospital.

    Bacher was chief of police in Delta roughly a year before resigning last September.

    He was with the Grand Junction Police Department from October 1976 to September 2002.

    Pot allegations
    The rifle’s owner, Dean, told investigators shortly after the accident the weapon involved was a Thompson-brand rifle, which is made to have interchangeable barrels.

    He’d recently fitted the rifle with a .243-caliber barrel.

    Dean said he put a live round in the rifle while at home, as a test.

    “The firearm did not eject the live round upon his testing and he closed the firearm, leaving the live round inside,” the affidavit said.

    Dean said he forgot the rifle was loaded when he brought it inside Jerry’s.

    “He said he did not remember the rifle was loaded until hearing (the) shot,” the affidavit said.

    Dean, a regular customer at the store, said he was at Jerry’s on Saturday because the wrong fore stock had been installed on the weapon.

    An investigator, meanwhile, noted an alleged strong odor of marijuana “emitting” from Dean, as he was being interviewed.

    The affidavit said Dean refused to allow investigators to search his truck — the vehicle was impounded at the sheriff’s office.

    Sheriff’s spokeswoman Heather Benjamin on Monday said an investigation into the shooting may take weeks.
    "The future ain't what it used to be".
    ~Yogi Berra~

  2. #17
    Member Array sig1860's Avatar
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    Try the 'ol "Don't ask...Don't Tell." Remember that military personel thing??

  3. #18
    Member Array LOAF's Avatar
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    My shop just has a no "loading" weapons in the shop rule. If you take out your cc to have an employee look at something and you unload it you may not reload your weapon until you are in your car. Makes sense to me.
    Glock 26 edc in Crossbreed Supertuck or SmartCarry when the situation calls for it
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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    This incident happened about a year ago in my town. It shouldn't happen but unfortunately it did. I believe there is now a "no loaded weapons" sign on the door.
    Lots of folks dropped the ball on this one. Folks that should have known better. Ended with being gut shot with a 243.
    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wmhawth
    This incident happened about a year ago in my town. It shouldn't happen but unfortunately it did. I believe there is now a "no loaded weapons" sign on the door.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevew View Post
    Lots of folks dropped the ball on this one. Folks that should have known better. Ended with being gut shot with a 243.
    They all dropped the ball and these guys are not rookies. Since the guy who brought the gun in apparently didn't know it was loaded it's doubtful if a "no loaded guns" would have changed anything. Complacency was the enemy here.
    "The future ain't what it used to be".
    ~Yogi Berra~

  6. #21
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shjourdan View Post
    Is it standard practice in the firearm industry to not allow loaded weapons inside the gun store??
    All of the shops that I have been to in town has a "no loaded weapons sign".
    You figure they would be a little more gun friendly.
    "No loaded weapons allowed"
    What that means to me...........
    Most of the time, the intention is meant to specifically include carried-in guns. I mean out in the open, rifles, shotguns, pistols, etc. In my mind, and narrowing down the broader intentions of what that generalization entails, it does not include me and me carrying concealed. This is how I carry into local gun shows while CCing. My state's laws also specify the criteria for posting of 'no concealed carry allowed'. Otherwise, the sign would read 'no concealed carry or loaded weapons allowed'. In truth, I do think it's the industry standard to ask patrons not to carry in loaded weapons.......I think it actually makes sense (again.....not to include concealed carry OR LEOs who will be carrying a loaded weapon openly). This should make some of the general public take a second look at their cased, or openly carried firearm before they go in the store to make sure. Thinking Joe Schmo carries in his historical Stevens single shot shotgun in the case or gun sock it's been in for the last three years.......thing is, when Joe put it in the gun sock, he forgot there was a live shell in the chamber.......he goes to grab it out of the gun sock butt first, but then grabs a little lower once the gun sock has bunched up around the grip or trigger guard........blammo! Ooops! That's the reason signs like this are posted. Probably helps with the insurance premiums as well. They were warned not to bring in a loaded weapon. Make sense? Now....I know there are way too many folks who don't even read signs or just plain ignore them, and believe it or not there are still some folks in this great country who are illiterate and can't 'read' a sign unless it's a picture. Think of yourself as a business owner.....a gun shop.......would you want to limit possible accidents in your shop? How about limiting your possibilities of being injured, or your property being damaged? I think it's a generic term intended to cover those folks who can't seem to cover themselves, or actually know the condition of their firearms while they're just carrying them in for the gunsmith to check out, or to sell. We've heard a lot on this very forum of how poorly even some of the employees at gun shops handle firearms. Throw in a mix of patrons who aren't sure of the condition of their firearms when they walk in with them. I'm guessing you got my point by now. When I open my shop, I'll more than likely post the same message.....any CCers and law enforcement will always be welcome as is so long as they don't intend to take it out and play with it. Just makes sense to me. No need in the more responsible individuals in our society taking offense to my sign. Just know your laws and responsibilities. I do, and it's all rather simple. On the other hand...English is a rather complex language and sometimes leaves a lot to be desired. Intent and reasoning. Ever wonder how much of the true Bible actually got lost in translation?

  7. #22
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    Most have liability issues to deal with. There is an outdoor supply store that I go to that is gun friendly, however there are signs in the holster area that reads:

    "if you plan on removing you handgun to fit a holster it must be cleared at the front of the store and checked in with customer service"

    I asked the manager about the sign and he said " sorry, I have to do it for the insurance company", but CC/OC is still welcome
    Timid people sleep peacefully at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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  8. #23
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    Not the ones where I shop.

    IMHO -- all the arguments for not carrying in a shop (or any other "I pro_RKBA, but..." site) are exactly the same as those that the hoplophobic use for restricting carry in the crazy patchwork quilt of no guns in/on/at "X" -- e.g., airport parking lots, airport terminals, any public building, any venue that charges admission, bars, buses, churches, colleges, concerts, funeral, gun shops, gun shows, libraries, parades, parks, protest, public gathering, public meetings (councels, boards, etc), road side rest areas, schools, sporting events, stadiums, trains, to name a few.

    However, there is no evidence that there is any higher rate of gun related problems in State "a", which allows legal carry in one of these places/events than there is in State "b", which denies legal carry in one of these places/events.

    In addition, those States which have the most of this "but not here" restrictions nonsense are the ones where the antis have lost the battle to ban out right or to extremely restrict carry and now they are fighting a rear guard action to make it as logistically hard as they can for us to avoid run afoul of the law.
    Last edited by DaveH; February 17th, 2010 at 10:19 PM.
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  9. #24
    Member Array shjourdan's Avatar
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    The signs I see posted mostly say "No Loaded Weapons". They do not specify further. To me, I take this as No Loaded Weapons, period. A simple sign stating "Loaded weapons must remain Holstered" would make more since to me. Gun shops should make it clear that they promote legal CC or OC for that matter.

    I understand all of the reasons for not wanting loaded guns being passed around (ie. the one you intend to have looked at or repaired). No one wants to be that idiot. Even with basic gun safety knowledge, you should know that loaded weapons should not be passed around or inspected for any reason.
    As far as the incident stated earlier, proper gun handling could have prevented the accident. It should be common practice for both the customer and the patron to have checked the chamber before handling the gun. This accident would have happened with or without a sign.
    "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent"
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  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    The gun shop in California I used to go to displayed this sign:

    Recently updated website:

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    The gun shop in California I used to go to displayed this sign:

    I may have to make me one of those signs. Classic.

    I've only seen one gun shop in my surrounding area with a No Loaded Weapons sign. I bought one there a some time back, but don't frequent since it is out of the way. My usual gun shop has no issues with it or signs, but after observing some of the idiotic things people do in the shop I wouldn't be surprised. It's like as soon as they cross the threashold of a gun store they ignore every safety rule they ever learned. It's like, "OK, we're here. Let's take out our CCWs and try them in every holster on the rack with a round in the chamber ignoring where it is pointing, and lets sweep the room and check out sights by pointing weapons right at other people in the shop." It happens. Me and one shop guy were at a counter across the store and we were doing the duck and dance until one of the guys could get over there and put a stop to it.

    I think it has more to do with the irresponsible behavior they witness day in and day out than anything.
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  12. #27
    Member Array liljake82's Avatar
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    All of my local shops have signs that say "unload firearms before entering except CCW's".
    Either you are a weapon and your gun is a tool or your gun is a weapon and you are the tool.
    ----- FMD

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array puncho's Avatar
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    I just follow the Florida laws when entering any business in Florida.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array Bob O's Avatar
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    I can understand any establishment including a gun shop to not wanting unholstered, loaded guns (except shooting ranges). A very dangerous situation!

    I can't understand any establishment especially a gun shop not wanting a holstered gun, loaded or not.

    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"
    ~John Adams

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Just because I like sharing this sign, this is why I shop at one of the local stores. I wish he carried more stuff though. I have OC'd in all the shops I frequent, none are posted against CC either. I have cleared my carry weapon in 2 of them to try out holsters. I rearmed, chambered a round, and re-holstered once I was done. Had one of the owners let me try out his Glock trigger after clearing it. I was wanting to try out a holster and one of the guys told me, "It's a gun shop, take it out and clear it."

    Oh, and the sign. Gotta love it.

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