Would force have been ok to us here?

This is a discussion on Would force have been ok to us here? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; For me, if they are just there for the cash, I say let um have it. If they turn violent and start to hurt or ...

View Poll Results: To/Not to shoot?

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  • Shot if safe backdrop

    38 30.65%
  • Dont engage due to only wielding

    38 30.65%
  • Engage because there is a gun wielded

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Thread: Would force have been ok to us here?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    For me, if they are just there for the cash, I say let um have it. If they turn violent and start to hurt or shoot folks, and you are in a good position to defend, then really let um have it!

    I didn't vote cause I'm personally gonna need more than what the scenario describes to justify engaging a threat that clearly has the jump on me and everyone for that matter. IMO, that's a situation where you have to find the perfect time to engage, or you can actually escalate the situation and risk allot of folks lives by drawing your CC weapon and getting involved.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array JoJoGunn's Avatar
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    Draw and fire. Period. Like someone said they are not there to be good samaritans. They are just as capable of shooting and killing someone as not doing it. Why take the chance, just take them out.

    Gun weilding criminals are shooting more often these days for reasons not clear. Maybe being nervous, on a power trip, drugs or possibly just for the thrill of shooting someone to see what if feels like.

    I don't know but if they live by the gun, possibly they will die by it.
    "A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"

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  4. #18
    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
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    Small space, crowded, out numbered, their guns already out, unorthodox shooting position...golly, what could go wrong? <g>

    I don't think Rob Leatham could get away clean on this one. Heck even if you fatally wound 'em on the first shot, they can go another 30 seconds or so before grandma calls 'em to the light.

    Unless someone is about to die, this Marine is gonna be a good witness.
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  5. #19
    Member Array Glock23MI's Avatar
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    Someone's pointing a gun at me, my assumption is that they plan to use it. I'm not going to wait to find out what their plans are. If i can draw on them and the backdrop is clear, they're going to become an FBI statistic before i do.

    BTW, is it really ever cold enough in TX to need a giant coat like that and to have the hood pulled up? That would have set some alarms off for me right off the bat.

  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    When the opportunity presents itself I will fire. I'm not going to let a b.g. control the situation.

  7. #21
    Member Array liljake82's Avatar
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    IMO as long as there is more interest in getting the money than in the customers I'd sweat it out. If it looks like they are going to start hurting people then I would look for an oportunity. Their goal is to get money not kill people. Of course they're going to try to intimidate people to get compliance. The tough part is knowing intimidation from threat. Until they become a threat be a good witness you'll live longer.
    Either you are a weapon and your gun is a tool or your gun is a weapon and you are the tool.
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  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock23MI View Post
    Someone's pointing a gun at me, my assumption is that they plan to use it. I'm not going to wait to find out what their plans are. If i can draw on them and the backdrop is clear, they're going to become an FBI statistic before i do.

    BTW, is it really ever cold enough in TX to need a giant coat like that and to have the hood pulled up? That would have set some alarms off for me right off the bat.
    it gets cold in texas but what alarms do you need...they were drawn as soon as they walked in the door...the jackets arent much of a focus at that point and you cant shoot someone for dressing inappropriately for the region....

  9. #23
    AzB
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    Quote Originally Posted by liljake82 View Post
    IMO as long as there is more interest in getting the money than in the customers I'd sweat it out. If it looks like they are going to start hurting people then I would look for an oportunity. Their goal is to get money not kill people. Of course they're going to try to intimidate people to get compliance. The tough part is knowing intimidation from threat. Until they become a threat be a good witness you'll live longer.
    +1. It's very rare for a bank robber to shoot or otherwise hurt someone. They want to get in and out before the police arrive.

    Why escalate? Then you run the danger of stray bullets hurting an innocent. Use your SA skills to be a good witness. Height, weight, clothing, distinguishing characteristics, etc.

    Az

  10. #24
    Member Array DKPRC's Avatar
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    I'm not sure this is a call that can be made from surveillance video, and I certainly wouldn't judge someone in the situation who did choose to fire based on what we can see, but I think the caution people are describing is a good idea. You've got multiple B.G, a crowded area, a lot of other unknowns. They may have additional people undercover in the bank (I doubt it, it did not exactly seem like a Robert DeNiro-Val Kilmer in Heat robbery, but you never know).

    In general, I'm thinking that the likelihood where you could draw and neutralize two already drawn B.Gs without them returning fire into the crowded group of people is pretty low, so I think I wouldn't want to deploy my weapon unless the situation was one where they had obvious decided to start shooting people anyway, and in that case it's more about limiting the number of killed/injured then preventing it entirely.

    Just a bad situation all around really.

  11. #25
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    My question for those of you who say to wait until the threat is imminent is, how imminent a threat is a guy pointing a gun at you? Are you actually waiting until he pulls the trigger? What is IMMINENT to YOU?

    I cannot wait until they pull the trigger.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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  12. #26
    Member Array Jsanchez's Avatar
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    I dont want too spoil the subject, But I tought Guns are not allow in banks

    In that case I will just be a good witness since I respect the laws

    I do apologize if, I offend anyone
    Make the best use of what is in your power, and take the rest as it happens.

  13. #27
    Member Array Tye_Defender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liljake82 View Post
    Until they become a threat be a good witness you'll live longer.
    But, how much longer? That's the question.

    Let's say they enter the bank 37 years, to the second, from the time I was born. Their guns are draw. Not a direct threat to me at this specific second but I could draw and fire, killing one and the other shoots me and runs away. I'm dead at 37 years and 5 seconds old.

    Instead I could decide to wait till I really believe they will fire, one spends 45 seconds getting money from the teller while the other guy has us at gunpoint, but not really a direct threat to me at this second. Then they spend another 20 seconds moving us to the back room, still not a direct threat to me. Then start shooting people every second. Now I'm dead, along with every other innocent bystander in the bank, at somewhere between 37 years 1 minute and 5 seconds and 37 years 2 minutes and 0 seconds.

    Is it worth the extra 115 seconds of life, if it costs everyone else theirs?

    I agree that it depends on the situation. If it's 2 guys in the bank and they look like they just want the money and are acting "reasonable" (for a criminal), not swinging their guns around yelling and screaming at each other, I would probably not draw. Also, I'm not there to protect everyone else, but I think I would be able to get over killing a bad guy quicker than I would allowing an innocent bystander die because I didn't act. I think I would tend to err on the side of shooting the bad guy. (Don't get me wrong, I know that it would eat me up to kill anyone, even a piece-of-scum, but someone hurt due to my inaction would be so much worse.)

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltyke View Post
    A man points gun at me. My CWP Instructor told us, "If someone points a gun at you, you MUST assume he's going to kill you dead." The penalty for being wrong is kinda permanent. If I have a clear shot, I'll take it.
    i like this one^ by not being at the ready or waiting for them to make the first move could prove to be your last mistake. I refuse to let the criminals make the decision and play on me as a victim. I won't have any of that. You almost have to make the first move, we know how hard it is to draw fast, aim well and hit accurately while under stress/concealment.

    I'm not letting the BG's play games with my life. There have been to many reports on the news where someone get robbed/carjacked/kidnapped/etc. and the BG's kill them anyways justs because they can.
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    If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.

  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array tiwee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmanluke View Post
    My question for those of you who say to wait until the threat is imminent is, how imminent a threat is a guy pointing a gun at you? Are you actually waiting until he pulls the trigger? What is IMMINENT to YOU?

    I cannot wait until they pull the trigger.
    When they are covering the group, it is not imminent for an individual. At that point, they are going to shoot the person that moves or tries to draw. In other words, they will "Hit the nail that sticks up."

    When the focus narrows to one individual, it becomes imminent for that person in my mind.

    My goal in life is after the bad guys I have offed are standing at the pearly gates they say, "Who would've thought that old goat would have been armed. O well, live and learn. Oops. Darn it."

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmanluke View Post
    My question for those of you who say to wait until the threat is imminent is, how imminent a threat is a guy pointing a gun at you? Are you actually waiting until he pulls the trigger? What is IMMINENT to YOU?

    I cannot wait until they pull the trigger.
    My thoughts exactly. I'll call 911 after the fact. It's much safer, faster, accurate, and easier to act than react.

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