Would force have been ok to us here?

This is a discussion on Would force have been ok to us here? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 9MMare Or the other could be enraged and kill everyone else after you. Or the guy you hit could keep firing and ...

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Thread: Would force have been ok to us here?

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Or the other could be enraged and kill everyone else after you. Or the guy you hit could keep firing and hit innocents. Or someone may see you draw and scream and totally destroy your element of surprise......

    Against the odds that bank robbers generally dont kill.

    I also found the comment about 'controlling' the situation unrealistic and scary. Once you fire....you have no more control over that situation....you just introduced more variables.
    I'm really starting to wonder why some members here even carry. Is it a false sense of security or what?

    If you wait to see what a b.g. is going to do you may find out that you don't like the results.

    The guys have threaten you and every one else in that bank lives. They didn't use a fork or a garden hose, they used a GUN. They have demonstrated that they're serious and so should you. I'm not trying to say that you need to become "Rambo" but if the oppertunity presents itself YOU not them should take over the control of the situation.

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    I'm honestly surprised at how many think they will have the time to deploy their weapons on a BG that has the drop on you. I truly wish you all the best, but it doesn't seem feasible without some kind of physical altercation taking place. Who am I to say though, you might be slicker than snot on a door knob, but I'm thinking that if the threat isn't directly on you and you draw you pistol you'll most likely cost some poor innocent souls their lives as well. As CC folks we not only own it to ourselves and our families to make good judgment calls while CC, but we owe it to the innocent folks around us that could be hurt or killed as a direct result of our actions as well. JM2Cs




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  4. #48
    Member Array djz87's Avatar
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    I would be worried about the heavy coat. If your trying to hide, you don't really need a winter jacket to do it. Perhaps they could have had some sort of armor underneath? I suppose its worth considering. I'm a decent shot, but i don't think i can take down two BG's with head-shots...
    You tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is 'never try'. -Homer Simpson

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I'm really starting to wonder why some members here even carry. Is it a false sense of security or what?

    If you wait to see what a b.g. is going to do you may find out that you don't like the results.

    The guys have threaten you and every one else in that bank lives. They didn't use a fork or a garden hose, they used a GUN. They have demonstrated that they're serious and so should you. I'm not trying to say that you need to become "Rambo" but if the oppertunity presents itself YOU not them should take over the control of the situation.

    False sense of security? IMO a false sense of security is assuming:

    --one person can *stop* 2 bad guys before they get any shots off.
    --Assuming I have 2 perfect shots 2 perfect backstops.
    --Assuming they dont have have body armor under those long coats.
    --Assuming my aim is that perfect.
    --Assuming that someone else does not see me draw and destroy my advantage of surprise.

    From *every* gunfight account I have read.....99% of them didnt 'stop' the attackers immediately. And those were conducted by professional LEOs.

    There are going to be times when you have to shoot, and take your chances with the risks I listed. This was not the case. As was proven out by the fact that *no shots were fired.* As was pointed out...is *usually* the case in bank robberies.

    So....you choose your odds, I'll choose mine.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I'm really starting to wonder why some members here even carry. Is it a false sense of security or what?

    If you wait to see what a b.g. is going to do you may find out that you don't like the results.

    The guys have threaten you and every one else in that bank lives. They didn't use a fork or a garden hose, they used a GUN. They have demonstrated that they're serious and so should you. I'm not trying to say that you need to become "Rambo" but if the oppertunity presents itself YOU not them should take over the control of the situation.
    we're not talking about neutering the dog to keep em from humping uncle bucks leg here bubba...these dogs shoot back...you may feel that carrying a firearm makes you a deputized citizen but many of us feel otherwise and there are more lives to consider than your own when the shtf....youre 2 milies give the impression that the oppportunity to deploy your firearm looks like fun to you...lets hope you dont have to find out...

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    I'm honestly surprised at how many think they will have the time to deploy their weapons on a BG that has the drop on you.
    Yup.

    About the only circumstance in which I think it could work (at a bank with a half-dozen customers or more) would be if the BG began to concentrate on herding folks together, in which the line of people could cover the draw and help ensure the first BG could be engaged prior to much resistance. Though, in a multi-BG crime, the others would almost certainly come out blasting in response.

    Imagine being mugged at night, when a single BG approaches and asks a group of 2-3 people to hand over their wallets, watches. Again, if the draw can be hidden, then it might achieve turning the tables. Not likely otherwise. Same sort of problem with the bank scenario.

    If he/they already have the weapon(s) out, it is extraordinarily wishful thinking to believe tables can be turned so easily. IMO, it would take a particular set of circumstances to allow it to occur.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  8. #52
    Member Array Dakota97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I'm really starting to wonder why some members here even carry. Is it a false sense of security or what?

    If you wait to see what a b.g. is going to do you may find out that you don't like the results.
    21 Bubba, Please don't take any offense to my suggestion as non is intended.
    I suggest that to test your ability to draw from a holster and take out 2 guys who have the drop on you, that you get 2 friends and go to a paintball range. Have your 2 friends position themselves apart with their guns already drawn, then draw your gun from a holster and see if you can take hit both of them COM before they can shoot you. I don't think I have the speed or skills to do that, but maybe you could get them both.
    NRA life member.

  9. #53
    Member Array jonesy_26's Avatar
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    Anything like this is a tough call. With fear and adrenaline pumping, as well as see it unfold live vs looking at stills, I could go either way. My gut is telling me now, based on the limited info available, to wait to see if they mean to do more than wave their guns around. If they start hurting people or shooting, then the decision is made.

    While I may have a clean backdrop, do the badguys have one? Where am I standing if/when I decide to act? I'm probably with the rest of the people in the bank, especially if they immediately try to herd us together.

    Its 2 on 1, and while I may get an opening where I can engage #1, I am immediately wide open to attack from #2. Its either move off the X fast, and keep moving or get to cover. And try not to get

  10. #54
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I'm really starting to wonder why some members here even carry. Is it a false sense of security or what?
    What I'm actually wondering is how many people with a CCW have completely unrealistic expectations about not only a handgun's "instant" stopping power, but also about their own [in]accuracy potential when encountering an armed opponent, as well as the BG's possibly remorseless (and sometimes completely un-frightened) reaction to your "super manstopper" JHP rounds.

    Add to that your own general physical/mental reactions during a lethal/violent encounter (i.e., loss of cooridination, the shakes, and a sudden and complete loss of any desire to become the new Rambo/John Wayne/Clint Eastwood type of hero).

    -Bill

  11. #55
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    You all are taking this wrong.

    1. No I can't outdraw a bg that has a gun in my face.
    But I can draw while he has it in your face.
    2. The bg's attention is not always going to be on me.
    When it's not, that is the time to act.
    3. Yes somebody may scream, they probably already have.
    That's not my problem. Only taking out the bg's is my focus.

    I'm not a hero nor do I intend to be a vic. Do you trust these guys not to shoot you? You say the odds are they won't. The odds are you'll never be put in this situation. But you train and equip because it "might" happen.

    None of us knows how a situation like this will turn out.

    I liken it to a car wreck. You can see the car coming towards you and hope it misses you, or you can do whatever it takes to avoid it.

  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    this is not an idpa stage...this is real and the cardboard targets shoot back...

    and may have an accomplice in the bank...it is not uncommon for criminals to use a scout to enter the scene before them and scope it out for potential problems...

    you also risk law enforcement intervention with you in a bank being robbed with your gun deployed...now unless you have also deployed your sash and ccw badge as recognized by mall ninjas everywhere...you may be in for a world of pain...

  13. #57
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    this is not an idpa stage...this is real and the cardboard targets shoot back...

    and may have an accomplice in the bank...it is not uncommon for criminals to use a scout to enter the scene before them and scope it out for potential problems...

    you also risk law enforcement intervention with you in a bank being robbed with your gun deployed...now unless you have also deployed your sash and ccw badge as recognized by mall ninjas everywhere...you may be in for a world of pain...
    You all are going to could've, would've and maybe this till you come up with a way to justify your actions or lack of.

    By the time you've determined what you might do it maybe too late.

    Yes I keep my ccw sash, badge and ninja outfit right next to your sheepskin.

  14. #58
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    You all are going to could've, would've and maybe this till you come up with a way to justify your actions or lack of.

    By the time you've determined what you might do it maybe too late.

    Yes I keep my ccw sash, badge and ninja outfit right next to your sheepskin.
    view the pics again bubba...tell us how your scenario and action would have improved it....thanks for the lesson...

  15. #59
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    I don't want to shoot anybody, but I also do not want to be herded into a place away from the main business area of the bank.
    These guys look really bundled up which makes it hard for them to see everything around themselves...that's good.
    This is one of those situations where 'you had to be there'.
    I'm not interested in a gunfight, but I am also not interested in 'checking out' earlier than expected.
    If I suspected that I was going to get shot anyway (one or two BG's), I don't care, at my age...I'm not leaving alone.
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  16. #60
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    Is it okay to shoot?
    Well, are you talking legally? Realistically? Morally?
    Legally--probably. State laws on using deadly force vary.
    Realistically--Maybe/maybe not. Three guns blasting way are bound to hit somebody, but the intended target? Who knows. We can all claim to be Deadeye Dick, but when you've just been delivered a massive dose of adreneline, even the best shooters can go awry.
    Morally--Only you can decide that.
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