Would force have been ok to us here?

Would force have been ok to us here?

This is a discussion on Would force have been ok to us here? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; they seem to not be going wild but still there is a gun out getting pointed at people. So I guess what do yall think ...

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Thread: Would force have been ok to us here?

  1. #1
    Member Array mitocondriac's Avatar
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    Would force have been ok to us here?

    they seem to not be going wild but still there is a gun out getting pointed at people. So I guess what do yall think would it have been ok to open fire on them?



    Bank of America Bank Robbery Photos | NBC Dallas-Fort Worth
    So If Guns Kill People Do Pencils Miss Spell Words???


  2. #2
    Member Array mitocondriac's Avatar
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    And just to let you all know from the door they entered in when guy in orange is on right side of screen doors (they entered from) behind them and doors on the left side(doors to other parking lot) right side is the vault and straight in is the teller line where I would have been close to or behind wall. so would have had a clean back drop and an empty parking lot behind them.

    I was not there when this happened but very well could have been. Spend alot of time there.
    So If Guns Kill People Do Pencils Miss Spell Words???

  3. #3
    Member Array alexcantslee's Avatar
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    Man that cuts close to the bone for me. I live near Cedar Hill and do most of my dining there. I grew up over off of Beltline on the North end of the metro-plex and live near the Beltline on the South end now.

    As far as what I would have done its hard to say. If I had had my son with me and there was no way to get out or get him someplace hidden no telling what I would have done. Im a big fan of not being a hero in that regard but Ive got an obligation to my son to potentially risk my life to save his.

    Frankly it sickens me we live in a world where we even have to ask ourselves these questions.

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    My other Kahr is a Kimber.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    While, hindsight is 20-20, but they didnt fire on anyone.

    And I'm pretty sure that's how I would have played it...not firing....based on the pics. Sorry, but I probably would have waited until a shot was fired or was "positively imminent". If I had concealment, I would have had my gun out/ready. If no concealment, look as non-threatening as possible and position myself as best as I could to draw if necessary.
    Fortune favors the bold.

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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  5. #5
    Member Array JeffMRC's Avatar
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    Not having the luxury of hindsight at the time there are a lot of variables. If they show a gun my gut tells me they are going to use it. The instant you have a chance before things start to go bad you better be one step ahead. If they move toward you with their gun drawn and pointed in your direction because they are going to herd you in a back room it's too late. Act when you can, shoot or no shoot. Wild, crazy robbers are scary, but so are the quiet, silent ones. I wouldn't shoot only if they were leaving the bank. If I had the chance, I'd shoot.
    "I wish I would have done the hard things when they were easier to do."

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    draw and fire. they are not there to hand out candy.....
    I am not willing to bet my life on there good graces.

    a simple scan of the news and you can see that there not shooting is not the norm.
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
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  7. #7
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitocondriac View Post
    what do yall think would it have been ok to open fire on them?
    I could find no articles with details to go with those few still photos. No details, other than suggestions the robbers had deadly weapons, threatened death, herded folks into "areas" of the bank.

    I have long since come to an understanding about what I am prepared to do if the situation gets to the point where an armed robber is herding me to another spot. The statutes that apply to me support nearly any response, up to and including the use of lethal force to stop such a threat.

    Personally, I'd have no problems using lethal force to stop my being herded to the back.

    Would it have been "okay" to open fire on the robber(s)? Sure, legally speaking (at least, in any state where such criteria are sufficient). Though any crowded situation has plenty of risks to weigh. For me, the mere fact there's a gun and a threat isn't sufficient. It would depend on the exact circumstances, on the flow of the situation, the position and apparent competence of the criminals, the likelihood of direct intervention being able to stop the threat. If all I'm likely to achieve is noise, smoke and my death, then reacting seems pointless at that moment. However, change the mix just a bit, then it absolutely might be the best action to take.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; February 18th, 2010 at 03:30 PM. Reason: spelling
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array tiwee's Avatar
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    Gray man unless you could retreat to cover safely. Then wait for it to be over. If they come for you, then you must defend yourself.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    A man points gun at me. My CWP Instructor told us, "If someone points a gun at you, you MUST assume he's going to kill you dead." The penalty for being wrong is kinda permanent. If I have a clear shot, I'll take it.

  10. #10
    Member Array Bkrazy's Avatar
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    Thats a tough one. There are 2 robbers who both have weapons. If I make a preemptive move I better be damn sure I can incapacitate them both with one shot at each before the other realizes that it is me shooting. One on one too easy to asses the threat and take action, but two on one and there becomes many more variables. I would hate to kill one BG just to have the other one shoot a bystander. I would not be able to live with myself had I been the reason an innocent was shot.

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltyke View Post
    A man points gun at me. My CWP Instructor told us, "If someone points a gun at you, you MUST assume he's going to kill you dead." The penalty for being wrong is kinda permanent. If I have a clear shot, I'll take it.
    if hes already pointing the gun at you it may be too late...you arent going to outdraw a pointed gun...food for thought...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkrazy View Post
    Thats a tough one. There are 2 robbers who both have weapons. If I make a preemptive move I better be damn sure I can incapacitate them both with one shot at each before the other realizes that it is me shooting. One on one too easy to asses the threat and take action, but two on one and there becomes many more variables. I would hate to kill one BG just to have the other one shoot a bystander. I would not be able to live with myself had I been the reason an innocent was shot.
    as far as you know there are 2 robbers...you dont know who is outside or who may be inside working with them...

    there are a lot of variables and not being in the actual situation makes it difficult to read and prepare for what is and could be happening...

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    if hes already pointing the gun at you it may be too late...you arent going to outdraw a pointed gun...food for thought...
    True, but if he's distracted (covering another hostage, maybe?) or I can dive for cover and I believe he's gonna kill me no matter what, I'm at least gonna try to take him with me.

    And you're right. Each situation stands alone. There are too many variables to make a definite statement, "I'd do THIS."

  13. #13
    Member Array Davensquirt's Avatar
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    I would rather be a LIVE witness than a DEAD hero. Bottom line be a good witness. If your life is in immenent jeopardy, then that in its self is your answer.

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  14. #14
    EdC
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiwee View Post
    Gray man unless you could retreat to cover safely. Then wait for it to be over. If they come for you, then you must defend yourself.
    That about says it for me. If two identified bad guys come in the door with guns drawn, I think that the odds favor them so heavily at that point, the better option is what he said.

    I'm going to make the presumption that when guys come into a bank with hoods and guns, they're there to rob the bank. I can't presume either way whether or not it's going to be a quick rob and get out, or if they're going to stick around to kill witnesses (or herd them in the back to kill them).

    Bottom line for me is that I'm not confident enough in my abilities to take out two men with guns already drawn, standing pretty far apart from each other, without a high probability of myself getting shot, or another bystander getting shot by the BG. Yes, I know it would be the BG's fault, but that would be of no consolation to me.

    I would also feel awful if on the way out, one of the BG's shot someone just for the hell of it, and I might have prevented that if my decision had been different. Woulda, coulda shoulda, etc. But that's what I sincerely believe to be the best decision for me to make in such a situation, based upon what I know about the situtation, and more importantly, what I know about myself. Good things to think about ahead of time.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Bank robbers typically do not shoot people...they are there for the money and they want to collect and get out as quickly as possible.
    Not saying it can't happen...just saying the chance of a customer getting killed is pretty slim. See link below for FBI stats.

    Federal Bureau of Investigation - BANK CRIME STATISTICS (BCS) <br> FEDERAL INSURED FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS<br> OCTOBER 1, 2008—DECEMBER 31, 2008

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