The Perfect Stance: Does it matter in Self Defense? - Page 2

The Perfect Stance: Does it matter in Self Defense?

This is a discussion on The Perfect Stance: Does it matter in Self Defense? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by youngda9 Never known Janq to be at a loss for words... Only his count. And not getting movement is important in ...

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Thread: The Perfect Stance: Does it matter in Self Defense?

  1. #16
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    Array limatunes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngda9 View Post
    Never known Janq to be at a loss for words...

    Only his count. And not getting movement is important in that regard. Practice shooting on the move(dry fire first), work on your footwork to get that down. You might try some airsoft guns for practice.
    I think I'm going to save up my pennies for one. Airsoft in the basement would rock!

  2. #17
    Member Array utf59's Avatar
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    I think the stance is just the beginning. I prefer to think of what comes after as "footwork."

    If you understand why you form your shooting stance the way you do, it will help you come as close as possible to duplicating those conditions while you're moving. And from there to shooting positions that don't really involve footwork, like on your back, seated, etc.

    There are a number of videos on the web of people going through practical shooting stages. If you watch people who do practical shooting well (or some show featuring military operations) you'll see people either walking while shooting or while prepared to shoot. You'll notice that they keep their knees flexed and they are able to hold their weapons on target, frequently staring down the sights the entire time.
    "An armed society is a polite society." -- Robert A. Heinlein

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array Avenger's Avatar
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    I have to disagree on this. You want to practice what will actually happen. Getting into a stance should be muscle memory and you should be able to do it without thinking about it. The whole purpose of a stance is a foundation for for better marksmanship. If you are off weight or off foot then accuracy goes out the window. This is something I hammer in my CCW class. Stances might save lives. A good stance will reduce your silhouette and present less of a target and give you a better foundation to fire a well aimed round.

    I have had to shoot in self-defense and I do know what I am talking about.

    Point shooting on the other hand is a bit different. You jut clear leather and fire, one handed. This should be immediately followed up by an aggressive stance, both hands on weapon, and indexing.

    Moving and shooting. Call it the "groucho." This is feet shoulder width apart, knees slightly bent, torso pulled forward but comfortable, weapon up looking down the sights, arms slightly bent, (for right handers) left foot out front. Now walk. ONLY FIRE WHEN YOUR LEFT FOOT IS OUT IN FRONT! When doing this, your stance is in the popular weaver style yet you are moving. Fire two rounds center mass as soon as your left foot strikes the deck. Now you are moving and shooting.

    Constant practice will make this muscle memory and you will do it with out thinking about it. Under fire having a good head on your shoulders and keeping calm during a firefight so you can do this will most likely save your life.

    Having a good stance is the basic fundamental in marksmanship either for competition or self-defense.

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  5. #19
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    This would be more of a question for people who have actually had to shoot in self defense or a similar situation as, thankfully, I have not had to do so yet.

    However, while at the range a week or so ago I told JD that I felt I should be able to make accurate shots no matter how my feet are placed so that, in the event I am not able to achieve a shooter's stance I can at least be assured I can hit my target.

    While doing force-on-force (FOF) I discovered I needed to take shots in very unique positions. Just yesterday I read an article in a magazine that showed a woman taking a defensive shot, her back pressed up against a car with her left leg held straight out, keeping her knife-wielding attacker at bay. I've seen numerous dash-cams and police videos where officers are forced to shoot from the ground, while falling, or worse. And that's not even considering the stories I've read on Armed Citizen where guns are pulled in a wide variety of configurations; seated in cars, seated in booths, standing behind counters, running, just jumping out of bed, turned sideways, peeking around doorways, etc.

    But having worked in a range and listening to people talk about their shooting I have often hear, "Well, I think my stance was a bit off and that's why I couldn't hit anything."

    Now, don't get me wrong. I do believe that a shooter's stance is vital and should be instilled in a new shooter. It should be built upon and trained with. If you have the opportunity to achieve a shooter's stance than you should as it is well established that there is no better way to get the most accurate shots than when you are well grounded in a solid stance. I will not refute that or say that stance does not matter at all... that's just silly.

    BUT.. wouldn't practice sans a shooter's stance also be vital?

    If the only way you can make accurate shots is in a shooter's stance shouldn't more practice be implemented so that you can make decent shots outside of a shooters stance should that be necessary?

    What are your thoughts on the matter?

    Read the findings of Col. Rex Applegate. Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back (9780873649575): Rex Applegate, Michael Janich: Books

    His results are no matter what stance you train in you will end up in a crouched isosceles stance with a one handed grip. Muscle memory doesn't mean a thing under stress.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Its not going to matter in a real situation. Self defense shooting is not like golf, where you get all the time in the world to adjust your grip, your foot position and wiggle your butt before you swing.
    You will running, falling, dodging, sitting or whatever during a real shooting incident. Learning a proper shooting stance is fine and needed to learn; however, once one has progressed into combat shooting, it is foolish to think that proper stance is going to be achieved prior to firing.

    But, I do think that the whole proper stance thing is a carryover from military and police style training. Stance does have a lot of merit in some situations. It does stabilize the shooter, and it does make it easier to deliver accurate shots. That tends to be a little different situation than a self defense shooting.
    +1. At the range, you are shooting to a point. In a self defense situation, you are shooting to an area. When I practice at the range, I'm very interested in shooting at a small area in a silhouette target. It improves muscle memory and imprints point of aim in my mind. But I also do rapid fire, double and triple taps. I'm very satisfied if I can keep the rounds COM. Anything COM is going to make the bad guy sit up and take notice.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  7. #21
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    Thankfully I can practice at home, and don't have to deal with the constraints of a range.
    I shoot in a traditional stance, right and left handed, one handed, sitting, while moving and at targets in different directions. It's more fun. Nothing more fun than sitting on the porch plinking away.

  8. #22
    Member Array Shadeaux's Avatar
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    My suggestion is to learn as many as you can, become proficient in them and remember that in the end it’s the hits that count. What’s new now was old hat when I shot my first IPSC match back when Jeff Cooper was just about the only game in town.
    Standing and shooting is less desirable than shooting on the move. Point shooting should be high on your training program.

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  9. #23
    Member Array Smoke's Avatar
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    Dad, who is a wickedly good pistol shot, told me to stop thinking about stance, grip, and sights and put the bullets in the middle of the target!
    "Come Watson, the game is afoot!"

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Stance, grip, breathing, mental gymnastics of various types ... all of these are techniques we use to ostensibly improve balance, steadiness, elimination of outside distractions and other factors that affect aim, response time, application/direction of strength or force, and other elements.

    Yes, I'm betting that for any given situation a person would have one perfect stance that would have resulted in the best outcome. Though, there are so many variables in a situation that what perfect elements those were might never be known. It changes over time, with age, with amount of sleep, with the urgency of the situation. So, we train with various techniques, see how it goes, then train again.

    I try to listen to folks that are digging to find stress-proof or emergency-proof techniques that help to eliminate the variation in times of stress/emergency. They're onto something.

    And yet, those who end up truly proficient at it (whatever "it" is) very often state that clearing the mind of all the petty concerns is often the way to improved performance. Such as, when we see someone "in the zone" and note how effortless it looks. Often, such folks report they weren't thinking of much at all.

    Some combination of those techniques will likely tend to work better overall.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I think I'm going to save up my pennies for one. Airsoft in the basement would rock!
    Sounds like a great way for you and JD to work out your differences, I mean train together.

    Just make sure the little man doesn't get his hands on the little bb's...they'll go straight into his mouth.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  12. #26
    Ex Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Building on what CCW9MM said, did anyone catch them discussing the mouth pieces that some of the Olympic (& other pro) athletes are using?

    They were talking about how they help distribute tension and muscle strength and how it releases 'something' (I forget what) and helps focus and balance.

    And they start at like $600

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    I don't believe in the perfect stance in a SD situation. As long as my bullets strike where I aim, then I'm good to go. I do believe as someone mentioned here that working on stances and such, learning the basics will definitely help you later no matter what.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  14. #28
    Member Array naking's Avatar
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    Thankfully, I have never had to shoot in self defense. That said I have noticed in IDPA competition that when my stance is poor I can still shoot accurately; however, my split times open up noticeably.

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array RebelRabbi's Avatar
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    Stance matters very little in Marksmanship. Sight Alignment and Trigger Control matter a great deal.
    Gunfighting is a Martial Art and in any Martial Art Balance and Body Control should be practiced. People see a Katana and think hmmm Martial Art, Bushido etc. People see a firearm and think John Wayne, Bruce Willis etc. It's a perception thing.
    The battle is won by the Warrior not the weapon, the weapon is only the tool.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    I constantly practice moving off the "X".... and in both where would stance matter other than maybe having your weight evenly ballanced....?

    I was taught to never stand still in one place or the lead could be flyin' back at ya..............

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