Killings by Concealed Handgun Licensees Hit 139 Since May 2007 - Page 2

Killings by Concealed Handgun Licensees Hit 139 Since May 2007

This is a discussion on Killings by Concealed Handgun Licensees Hit 139 Since May 2007 within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Once the Violence Policy Center's Sugerman's pap shows up on, it will be redistributed/republished in papers, such as the Roanoke Times in a week ...

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Thread: Killings by Concealed Handgun Licensees Hit 139 Since May 2007

  1. #16
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    Array DaveH's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Fight this nonsense

    Once the Violence Policy Center's Sugerman's pap shows up on, it will be redistributed/republished in papers, such as the Roanoke Times in a week or two.

    Also, the huffingtonpost also is a "resource" for the anties to turn to whenever a local story gives them an excuse to repeat this biased, out of context data.

    So, expect to see this again over the next year are so.

    It's the repeat-the-lie-often-enough-and-people-will-believe-it propaganda machine at work.

    We all need to reply with letters-to-the-editor Op Ed and the like. Just discussing it here is preaching to the choir. Let's all work to counter the the repeat-the-lie-often-enough-and-people-will-believe-it manta in the public press.

    Flying below the radar and "concealed is concealed' has its place. But for our kid's sake & future we need to step up and be counted.

    Don't sit back and hope/wait for the NRA, or someone else, to meet the challenge.

    Join your local grass-roots RKBA group. If you don't have one in your State, start one. [VCDL evolved from a small group of like minded citizens in NOVA into a force to be reckoned with.] Get in the habit of refuting this pap on local "news" blogs, in local papers, etc.

    Be Pro-RKBA.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

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  2. #17
    AzB is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post

    When CCW unlawful killings start to match or outpace deaths due to lack of health insurance, I may start to pay attention.

    When CCW unlawful killings start to match or outpace the death of innocents due to slow or lack of LEO response, I may start to pay attention.
    The first thing I thought of is that 44,xxx people die every year in automobile crashes in this country, yet we can't convince many of them to put the phones down. If they're not worried about that number, 139 seems like it's not worth a mention.

    It's all about perspective.


  3. #18
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Seriously, this is such a ridiculous report. I like the comment down below:

    Josh: "Because the gun lobby has made it virtually impossible to discover the details of crimes committed by specific license holders, the VPC is forced to rely primarily on news reports. So the actual numbers of homicides committed by concealed handgun permit holders is most likely far higher."

    Translation: "Our own data shows the number of murders by CCW holders is very low, so we are just going to assume that actual numbers are much higher because that helps our case, even though we have no evidence whatsoever to back that assumption up."
    That coupled with the fact that most of these killings were probably justified by the circumstances, but they won't point that out. To them a gun-related death is a crime no matter what.

    It never ceases to amaze me how blatantly biased they can be and people still listen to them. It's just stunning that someone can be so biased and still be considered trustworthy by anyone.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

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  5. #19
    Member Array Ash4Hogs's Avatar
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    As a statistician, I really appreciated some of the thoughtful comments provided to Sugarman's article. The only way to beat these people is to bury their inaccuraccies with concise data, and thoughtfull arguement.

    It won't change 'em, but it will make me feel better.

  6. #20
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    It’s a shame that even one person died by the hand of a permit holder. Still, I wonder how many people were shot and killed by non-permit holders over the same period.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array boscobeans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    The Huffington Post is a pile of poop anyway.
    +1 on that, for sure.


  8. #22
    pax is offline
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    Here's a good take on that from another board: Another conversation with an anti - TheFiringLine Forums

    Kathy Jackson
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  9. #23
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    Ohhhhhhhhh!!! Nooooooo!!! Sounds like those air-crash statistics and stories, presented with those old video clips that they have gathered and are alwasy ready to show, during the past couple of decades or so. Most media people never compare them with that one big statistic with their lack of facts: "Out of a population of three-hundred million people...". I mean, how much can you do for or during a nightly two-minute evening "news" story?

  10. #24
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    Your chances of being killed by a permit holder using a gun are far lower than your chances of being killed by a Kennedy operating a vehicle.

    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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  11. #25
    Member Array merischino's Avatar
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    How bad? 0.15%, more or less, or one-sixth of 1%.

    Since the CDC has not yet released its 2007-2010 figures in all areas, yet, it isn't easy to get the exact data needed to speak to the Violence Policy Center's claims.

    But we can make some fairly accurate estimates, I believe.

    For the years 2003-2006, immediately preceding the period that VPC is reviewing, the annual number of fatalities related to firearms was roughly constant: ~30K/yr fatalities, with just over half of those (~17K/yr) being intentional suicides.
    Thank you for taking the time to provide some actual statistics!

    Originally Posted by merischino View Post
    PS there are what, 60,000,000 law abiding gun owners in America, of which how many are permit holders? I would guess, at least 1/3rd that number or 20,000,000?
    Haha, I believe you're about an order of magnitude off in your's closer to 3.33% than it is to 33.3%.
    Thanks for keeping me in line. I'm wet behind the ears as it relates to guns. I did not intend to make up a stat (I was sure I'd read something to the effect of that many ccl holders in the states within the last couple of days) and its best that being off, by any amount but certainly when the difference between what I Said and the Truth could be described as logarithmic, I get corrected.

    Can anyone explain to an idiot the likes of me (or maybe a gun uninitiate the like of many of the readers of the Huffington Post?) why only 3% of "law abiding gun owners" would choose to be permit owners? If that stat is true, I can easily see it also driving scare-tactic articles like the one posted here.

    People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.
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    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
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  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Lewis128's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
    I have changed the thread title and edited the original post to make it less inflammatory. Since it is "on topic" for the forum it will be allowed to run, until it turns ugly anyway....
    You asked for it...

    The Huffington Post isn't a serious news outlet. Don't think it ever was.
    "And that's all I've got to say about that." -Forrest Gump

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by merischino View Post
    Thank you for taking the time to provide some actual statistics!
    Well, keep in mind that the CDC stats are then being rubbed up against this "139" that the VPC has proposed. I don't know where that number comes from, so I cannot validate it.

    But the CDC stats are fairly clear. They're viewed from the hospital/doctor/police reports in terms of actual injuries, fatalities. It doesn't include those injuries/fatalities that aren't reported, but it's a pretty good number. The data simply doesn't go all the way to the recent months, as it takes them a very long time to post recent data (ie, as of Feb 2010, only 2006 is complete for all elements).

    Can anyone explain to an idiot the likes of me ... why only 3% of "law abiding gun owners" would choose to be permit owners?
    Most of the states that report data indicate somewhere from a fraction of 1% to several percent. I don't think any state has hit 10% yet.

    Why? Almost certainly, it's due to a combination of factors, since everyone is different. Lack of time to consider it. The mistaken belief that crime only happens to other people. Lack of a personal yardstick for evaluating the probability of risk. Lack of desire to harm others. Outright unwillingness to "kill." Inability to carry a deadly-force tool most of the day, hence inability to see the point of carrying it only a couple hours a day. The belief that improving other elements of security can be sufficient. That the unlikelihood of ever encountering a deadly situation makes it an acceptable risk, given the pros/cons of preparing for it. Who's to say.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    I love how the comments on his article are overwhelmingly logical and fact based, debunking his rediculous assertions. How do you write such blatantly wrong opinions about very clear facts and still try to twist peoples opinions to agree with you? He has no basis for any of the arguments he makes.
    Walk softly ...

  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Brady bunch has a running of people shot on their website... not deaths, not criminal shootings, not LEO shootings, not CCW shootings.... just people shot. I can see this being just another shot they are trying to take at our rights...pardon the pun

    Spinning, spinning, spinning
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  16. #30
    Member Array OldLincoln's Avatar
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    What they aren't reporting is that 1,237,821 people were SAVED by CCW permit holders.

    (Calculated using the same methodology as Jobs Saved by the Stimulus)

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