Killings by Concealed Handgun Licensees Hit 139 Since May 2007

Killings by Concealed Handgun Licensees Hit 139 Since May 2007

This is a discussion on Killings by Concealed Handgun Licensees Hit 139 Since May 2007 within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here is the left spin machine in action. This will probably be in new york times too... sorry if this is a repost, these people ...

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Thread: Killings by Concealed Handgun Licensees Hit 139 Since May 2007

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    Member Array DIXIETWISTER's Avatar
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    Killings by Concealed Handgun Licensees Hit 139 Since May 2007

    Here is the left spin machine in action. This will probably be in new york times too...
    sorry if this is a repost, these people are who we are against and it is good to know their tactics.

    Killings by Concealed Handgun Licensees Hit 139 Since May 2007

    Josh Sugarmann: Killings by Concealed Handgun Licensees Hit 139 Since May 2007
    Last edited by Bumper; February 23rd, 2010 at 01:27 AM. Reason: Removed inflammatory comments
    You may not like guns. You may choose not to own one. That is your right.
    You might not believe in God. That is your choice.
    However, if someone breaks into your home at 3AM the first two things you are going to do are:
    1) Call someone with a gun.
    2)Pray they get there in time." - A wise man


  2. #2
    Member Array DIXIETWISTER's Avatar
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    Although reading through the blog the pro Concealed carry bloggers are kicking the Antis. butts....lol
    You may not like guns. You may choose not to own one. That is your right.
    You might not believe in God. That is your choice.
    However, if someone breaks into your home at 3AM the first two things you are going to do are:
    1) Call someone with a gun.
    2)Pray they get there in time." - A wise man

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    Member Array AceHi's Avatar
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    So, what percentage is this of all killings since May 2007?
    NRA Life Member

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    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    The Huffington Post is a pile of poop anyway.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    I read the headline thusly:

    "139 Would-be Victims Have Effectively Defended Themselves With Concealed Carry Since May 2007"

    But that's because I only read headlines.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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    I have changed the thread title and edited the original post to make it less inflammatory. Since it is "on topic" for the forum it will be allowed to run, until it turns ugly anyway....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

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    They should put the statistics on how many murders there were without CHL's since may 2007. But of course putting that statistic wouldn't help crucify CHL holders.
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

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    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Of course, there are some significant issues with these numbers, since some don't involve concealed carry, or even the holder of the permit. In some cases, the fact that the person has a concealed carry permit is completely coincidental.
    - Tom
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    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    Subtract the following from 139:

    -How many of these were valid self-defense?
    -How many of these would have occurred anyway even if concealed carry were completely outlawed?

    I'm betting the result is 0.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
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    Member Array merischino's Avatar
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    Certainly not an objective report. Still, even given that this guy Cook clearly went "postal", it is scary to think of a CCW instructor (not just holder) who has built his entire life, assumedly, around being a responsible gun person suddenly having his crazy light wink on, turn on his wife, and then attack the police.

    It's a frightening anecdote. The statistics they posted next to it? need explaining. Or at least, a reliable source reference for those of us who would go do the due diligence of hunting down any possible merit to those numbers.

    M-

    PS there are what, 60,000,000 law abiding gun owners in America, of which how many are permit holders? I would guess, at least 1/3rd that number or 20,000,000? So, if 139 CCW holding offenders is correct, that's exactly what % of permit holders that are committing offenses over a 2 year period? How many decimal points? Yeah. So... I am thinking its a disturbing report, and if there had been a claim of a trend, it could be argued a disturbing trend. But like RG (i think) said, how many of those counted had a real, 2nd A right to self-defense vs. how many were outrightly criminal acts as those numbers were claiming to reflect?

    It would be really nice to have actual, discernible facts and not just plain numbers in ink on a page.
    Last edited by merischino; February 23rd, 2010 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Added ps
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    Senior Member Array Katana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    The Huffington Post is a pile of poop anyway.
    I think you give them too much credit. Poop can be used as a gardening fertilizer so at least it can contribute something positive to society. The Huffington Post I'm not so sure of...
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    A bit of statistical fiddling ...

    How bad? 0.15%, more or less, or one-sixth of 1%.

    Since the CDC has not yet released its 2007-2010 figures in all areas, yet, it isn't easy to get the exact data needed to speak to the Violence Policy Center's claims.

    But we can make some fairly accurate estimates, I believe.

    For the years 2003-2006, immediately preceding the period that VPC is reviewing, the annual number of fatalities related to firearms was roughly constant: ~30K/yr fatalities, with just over half of those (~17K/yr) being intentional suicides.

    Thus, for quickie purposes of being able to speak to the VPC claims, let's assume that the next three years (early 2007 to early 2010) would remain roughly the same, at ~30K/yr fatalities and ~17K/yr suicides, with an estimated ~5K fatalities so far in 2010. The total being ~95K and ~54K suicides. These numbers won't exactly match those being used by the VPC, but it should be close enough to get a feel for the size of problem VPC is referring to.

    The VPC is claiming that 139 fatalities during this period (early 2007 to early 2010) were due to people who were legally carrying firearms (ie, CHL carriers). What percentage of the total firearms-related fatalities does that represent? 139 out of 95,000 fatalities amounts to 0.146%, or one-sixth of 1% of all firearms-related fatalities were the result of people who legally carried a CHL. Removing the more than half of the fatalities that were intentional suicides from the numbers, then we're talking about ~41K non-intentional fatalities, and half of the 139 (or, 70) fatalities related to those legally carring a CHL. What percentage of the non-intentional, firearms-related fatalities does 70 represent? 70 out of 41,000 fatalities amounts to 0.17%, or about one-sixth of 1%.

    While any death of innocents is to be lamented, the problem represented by wayward, criminal people who did their killing while legally carrying a CHL and firearm is a fraction of one percentage point. 70 people in ~3yrs.

    When millions of injuries and deaths over that period are being perpetrated against innocents in the USA, the VPC is railing about 70 due to CHL carriers in that period? Yes, the few criminals that skate under the radar need to be caught and dealt with, but IMO it hardly is worth erasing the system or removing effective defensive tools from the hands of millions of citizens.

    * Note: All data obtained from the CDC WISQARS injury/mortality reporting system for 2003-2008.
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    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merischino View Post
    PS there are what, 60,000,000 law abiding gun owners in America, of which how many are permit holders? I would guess, at least 1/3rd that number or 20,000,000?
    Haha, I believe you're about an order of magnitude off in your estimate...it's closer to 3.33% than it is to 33.3%.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

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    This just in. Since 2007, there have been 147 killings by HuffPo readers.

    (I made that statistic up, but it's only fair since the article cited invented their own figures, too....)

    Matt
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    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    When CCW unlawful killings start to match or outpace influenza deaths, I may start to pay attention.

    When CCW unlawful killings start to match or outpace homeless deaths due to exposure or starvation, I may start to pay attention.

    When CCW unlawful killings start to match or outpace deaths due to lack of health insurance, I may start to pay attention.

    When CCW unlawful killings start to match or outpace Darwin Award Winner deaths, I may start to pay attention, but not likely.

    When CCW unlawful killings start to match or outpace the death of innocents due to slow or lack of LEO response, I may start to pay attention.

    I could go on for pages with this line of thinking.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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