Less Lethal Defense - Page 2

Less Lethal Defense

This is a discussion on Less Lethal Defense within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Rollo, I agree 100% with your reasoning. There are a very few people in this forum that dislike/hate/phobic about OC spray. Ignore them. The majority ...

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  1. #16
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Rollo, I agree 100% with your reasoning.

    There are a very few people in this forum that dislike/hate/phobic about OC spray. Ignore them. The majority of the dangerous situations you encounter in life are more mano-o-mano, not gun-on-gun (unless you hang out with the wrong crowd, as I use to do); so I always carry OC. In fact, if I had a choice between OC or a gun, logic would dictate that I carry the OC.

    BTW, even though my experience with OC is statistically meaningless, my wife and I did a test: I sprayed a small amount of OC onto a paper towel, and I waved it beneath each of our noses for a few seconds. Within about ten seconds we began to cough, and within 20 seconds we were both running from the house crying and severely hacking.

    But then again, I OC sprayed a German Shepard that was attacking my wife in Kalifornia (too close for a .38, even if I could have carried). It was not impressed, so I beat it over the head with what I had -- an umbrella.

    I myself would really HATE to be hit full in the face with OC!! (Not everyone is effected by OC of course, just as there are very few one shot stops with a handgun. Nothing is perfect).

    -Bill


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array Adkjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    That's very odd. I've maced several dogs over the years and even a short burst stops them in their tracks.

    (Disclaimer for all those that are going for the reply button with flamethrowers at the ready: I've been an avid cyclist for 4 decades and nothing gets dogs going more than a bicycle, for some reason. Most dogs just want to play or chase, and really are no real threat other than maybe hitting them and crashing. I've trained several dogs on my route to stop chasing... it's very easy and quick. But as the area has become run down, we've had some dog fighting rings pop up. If I'm being chased by a pit bull in a bad neighborhood, I have to assume it's been trained to kill. I do carry also, but I always use mace first and it's always worked. I do carry while riding, but I am a dog lover and have no more desire to shoot a dog than I have to shoot a person. But I will protect myself)

    Perhaps a different kind of spray might work better? I get mine from a police supply store or use bear spray from REI. Both come in large cans and shoot a stream 10-25ft which makes it far less likely that you will get any residual spray, although wind can still be a problem.

    Az
    It was very odd, I thought for sure I was going to teach him a lesson but the dog was completely unphased. The dog has never bit me but I wasn't going to take that chance. I love animals and didn't want to shoot it especially if it was only chasing but it definitely didn't want to play.
    Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont allows anyone
    who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed without a permit of any kind.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    It comes to this, for me: I find myself able to carry only a certain amount of stuff, each day. While I have carried a small OC spray a few times, it's not part of my normal regimen. I have decided that I'll accept that managing less-than-lethal scenarios will rely on my brain, while fully deadly scenarios will rely on my brain+firearm.

    My choice is absolutely not a case of seeing everything as a "nail" for my hammer (firearm), merely because the only man-made defensive tool I opt to carry on a given day happens to be a firearm. Not hardly. Rather, it's a simple realization that I choose to manage everything short of deadly situations with my mind and ability to avoid/deescalate the situation. For me, I have decided that is the preferable mix of capabilities/risks, given my skills and limitations. YMMV.

    I understand the desire for non-lethal options, sure. Not least of which is the fickle nature of juries, as suggested, and how the goals and biases of the DA and jurors can conspire to crucify an otherwise innocent person. It's a risk, but one that I believe can be well managed by properly managing my responses in the field. It can put me at greater risk, sure, but we're speaking of the final 1% anyway. All else, I choose to deal with without the use of deadly force.

    Exceptions include places such as: where I am legally barred from carrying a firearm, knife; or, a place such as camping in the wilds where a big ol' can of bear spray can make all the difference. A walking stick that's properly designed can also make an impact on a threat and still be non-lethal. It'll also get aboard commercial airlines without a fuss.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  4. #19
    Member Array oldie's Avatar
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    I got in the habit of carrying OC when I lived in Massachusetts. I was not allowed to have a handgun, so my wife and I actually had to get a permit to carry OC.
    I was always glad that I had it and I have kept carrying it even though I live in Florida and CCW here.

    For me it makes sense in that I have often thought about a situation where I did not feel that my life was threatened. What happens if I am leaving a Publix and some kids start to hassle me? Non life threatening, but still a need for some positive action. For me, OC seems to fit the bill.

    BTW . . .Great thread . . . Thank you Rollo for posting it!
    "We have met the enemy, and it is us." Pogo Possum

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    I MIGHT consider carrying OC, given some of the arguments here. What's everyone's opinion of the best/strongest/most accurate/easiest to use?

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    {Another example. Letís say there is a 16 year old kid threatening me with a knife.}

    At close range a knife is as deadly as a gun. I would not consider anything but deadly force against a knife even if the kid was a 16 year old. How would you know his skill level?

    OC spray is not a good choice in that situation.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array DaRedneck's Avatar
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    I have no problem with spray. Even in a fist fight you could hit someone just right and accidentally wind up killing them. The spray might have prevented the fist fight and the headache of all the legal trouble of killing or seriously injurying someone in a fight. I know it's best to back down from a fight if you can but there are times you can't talk your way out of a fight.
    "He who does not punish evil commands it to be done." - Leonardo da Vinci

  8. #23
    Member Array Alf87's Avatar
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    Good post. I think carrying OC can be beneficial in certain circumstances and I completely support anyone who carries OC along with their EDC.

    I personally dont carry OC except when in bear country. My CCW instructor and colleagues have been telling me that adding OC to my daily carry could possibly complicate matters if and ever when I would need to use my firearm. I would need to defend myself against the "Use of Force Continuum" and justify why the use of OC wasn't sufficient enough to stop the threat. Of course, they say anyway a prosecuter could show a jury you had alternative means to defend yourself other then using your firearm, could play against you in court. I guess for me, since my instructor and colleagues are all LE, this gives me pause to think if I really need to carry OC.

    Another thing I'm told, if I do carry OC, it should be the same as used by LE. I guess some of the OC out there can cause some serious injuries to people so it's always best to go with what LE has. (it's better then being shot is my thought, but that's the recommendation they gave me)

    As I said in Rollo's other post, I don't like to carry a lot of things in my pockets or on by belt. I keep everything to a minimum which is mostly why I don't carry OC or a flashlight all the time.

    Those are my thoughts about "less lethal defense"

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adkjoe View Post
    Good post and I agree, however I will share one quick experience with OC an animals.

    I used to get chased by this German Shepard all the time when I used to jog. After talking to the owner and getting no where except cussed at I decided to pick up some fox labs OC to keep this dog away from me. One morning he comes flying off the porch like usual right on my tail, this time I turned and emptied the whole can of OC right in it's face. It did absolutely nothing. besides blinking it's eyes and getting angrier it did nothing to slow down or stop it.

    I then started bringing my husky/timber wolf dog running with me (my avatar) and that was enough to keep the dog on the porch and quiet...go figure, he was intimidated by a big gentle giant wolf dog but immune to OC spray...
    OTOH, I used some common, non-heavy duty stuff to stop 2 large husky-type dogs from attacking my dog. (Attack was already engaged, so doggy adreneline was flowing.) And it worked...both ran off.

    It wasnt fun tho...I had to time it right, grab my dog's collar and yank him out and shove my hand with the spray down in front of the other 2 dogs. There was little room or time between lunges.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  10. #25
    Member Array Intrepid's Avatar
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    I don't carry OC spray, but you have very well thought out reasons for carrying it. Make sure you practice, especially if you are going to go to use it as a primary for someone (whether 16 or not) with a knife.

    My LP buddy from my old store was making a stop a couple weeks ago, and the subject attempted to spray him with mace. she missed his eyes and hit him in the cheeks, and neck. The fight was on at that point. (OT but she was charged with robbery)

    If the same thing happens with someone armed with a blade, you need to be prepared to use lethal force.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltyke View Post
    I MIGHT consider carrying OC, given some of the arguments here. What's everyone's opinion of the best/strongest/most accurate/easiest to use?
    I carried some canister thing' way back when, and the only thing I carry today is a Kimber pepper-blaster. They offer an inert blue dye version for training but at 44-bucks including tax, I haven't yet been so inclined.
    ďMonsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.Ē
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  12. #27
    pax
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    I've played with the Kimber (well, with the inert training / blue dye variant anyway) Pepper Blaster, and have two thoughts on it:

    1) It is solidly-built and does exactly what it is advertised to do: delivers two, one-shot doses of OC at a greater distance than canister delivery systems, and with less possibility of cross contamination.

    2) I wouldn't use it, because the great beauty of the spray is that it isn't precisely targeted -- if you miss the suspect's face or eyes, you can "walk it in" to the sweet spot. Further, the cone-type delivery systems allow you to lay down a solid fog of OC between yourself and the attacker, so that he must advance through it in order to get to you. That's a fairly valuable thing, even at the risk of needing to deal with getting a little on yourself as well.

    To each his own, of course. And again, the Pepper Blaster does exactly what it's designed to do. No badmouthing here, just an observation that the old design does have some serious advantages over the new concept.

    pax
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  13. #28
    Member Array ArmdDadof4's Avatar
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    So seeing as I carry OC and my firearm, my concern would be could you still shoot with gun after they have been blinded by the OC. For instance if I manage to get OC out first and spray BG in order to buy time to draw my weapon, whats the next step if he refuses my verbal commands to drop his weapon. In my mind, if he knows I have a weapon on him and he refuses to comply then I feel threatened enough to shoot. Could a DA then say that it was unjustified b/c the BG could not see making him defenseless?
    One Man's Trash is another Man's Wife.
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  14. #29
    Member Array Intrepid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmdDadof4 View Post
    So seeing as I carry OC and my firearm, my concern would be could you still shoot with gun after they have been blinded by the OC. For instance if I manage to get OC out first and spray BG in order to buy time to draw my weapon, whats the next step if he refuses my verbal commands to drop his weapon. In my mind, if he knows I have a weapon on him and he refuses to comply then I feel threatened enough to shoot. Could a DA then say that it was unjustified b/c the BG could not see making him defenseless?
    It depends...if he's holding his weapon and rubbing his eyes and is in pain and not posing a threat (disobeying the verbal commands of a civilian does not constitute a deadly threat by itself), then probably not.

    If he has a knife and is stumbling around swinging his knife trying to find you, maybe, you could also retreat at this point.

    If he has a gun and shooting all around him in an attempt to shoot you, definitely use deadly force.

    The caveat is, he knows you have OC, not a firearm. If you got a good spray, his eyes are clamped shut, he can't see your firearm.

    The point of OC is to avoid having to use deadly force and opening up more options. If I sprayed someone and scored a hit to the eyes, I would be disengaging and calling the police.
    Last edited by Intrepid; February 23rd, 2010 at 05:08 PM. Reason: Wanted to add another sentence

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array DaRedneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmdDadof4 View Post
    So seeing as I carry OC and my firearm, my concern would be could you still shoot with gun after they have been blinded by the OC. For instance if I manage to get OC out first and spray BG in order to buy time to draw my weapon, whats the next step if he refuses my verbal commands to drop his weapon. In my mind, if he knows I have a weapon on him and he refuses to comply then I feel threatened enough to shoot. Could a DA then say that it was unjustified b/c the BG could not see making him defenseless?
    I would think that if you shoot a person you just blinded and he actually is blinded, then the DA could make a very strong case that the shooting was unjustified.
    "He who does not punish evil commands it to be done." - Leonardo da Vinci

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