Less Lethal Defense

This is a discussion on Less Lethal Defense within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Intrepid It depends...if he's holding his weapon and rubbing his eyes and is in pain and not posing a threat (disobeying the ...

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Thread: Less Lethal Defense

  1. #31
    Member Array ArmdDadof4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid View Post
    It depends...if he's holding his weapon and rubbing his eyes and is in pain and not posing a threat (disobeying the verbal commands of a civilian does not constitute a deadly threat by itself), then probably not.

    If he has a knife and is stumbling around swinging his knife trying to find you, maybe, you could also retreat at this point.

    If he has a gun and shooting all around him in an attempt to shoot you, definitely use deadly force.

    The caveat is, he knows you have OC, not a firearm. If you got a good spray, his eyes are clamped shut, he can't see your firearm.

    The point of OC is to avoid having to use deadly force and opening up more options. If I sprayed someone and scored a hit to the eyes, I would be disengaging and calling the police.
    That is the same rationale I had. If I tell him I have a gun drawn and to drop the weapon and he can not see to verify that I do indeed have one, then he is an idiot not to flee or comply. But unfortunately you can not shoot idiots. Unless said idiot is coming towards me and pointing the gun in my direction. I may not wait for him to shoot, though as blind luck may have him actually hit me.

    Blinded or not if that gun is pointed at my person, I have to assume that the OC has no effect and he intends harm. I would lean toward shooting in that position.
    One Man's Trash is another Man's Wife.
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  3. #32
    Member Array Intrepid's Avatar
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    As long as you can articulate why you felt you had no other options at the time you employed deadly force, and the evidence at the scene and any witnesses can corroborate your story, you SHOULD be fine.

    Consider moving to his side or getting behind him after spraying the OC. At that point he's not going to see any movement on your part and if he shoots in front of him (where he thinks you are) , you are not there anymore.

    In my state, I'm allowed to stand my ground, that doesn't mean I'm going to if moving away means that I don't have to shoot anyone. After I spray someone, I am not going to be sticking around the give verbal commands to drop his weapon. That's not my job, that's for the police to handle, my job is get away from the threat.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    As a side note on when to use deadly force:

    My CWP Instructor told us if someone comes at you with fists, you must assume he's Joe Louis/Chuck Norris. If someone comes at you with a ball bat, you must assume he's going to cave in your skull. If someone comes at you with a knife, you must assume he's gonna carve you like a Thanksgiving turkey. If someone comes at you with a gun, you must assume he's gonna kill you dead. Act accordingly - the penalty for being wrong is kinda permanent.

    Now, that may make for an interesting defense in court later, but at least you'll be alive to answer the charges. I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. And I'd rather my wife visit me at the prison than at the cemetery.

  5. #34
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    I've played with the Kimber (well, with the inert training / blue dye variant anyway) Pepper Blaster, and have two thoughts on it:

    1) It is solidly-built and does exactly what it is advertised to do: delivers two, one-shot doses of OC at a greater distance than canister delivery systems, and with less possibility of cross contamination.

    2) I wouldn't use it, because the great beauty of the spray is that it isn't precisely targeted -- if you miss the suspect's face or eyes, you can "walk it in" to the sweet spot. Further, the cone-type delivery systems allow you to lay down a solid fog of OC between yourself and the attacker, so that he must advance through it in order to get to you. That's a fairly valuable thing, even at the risk of needing to deal with getting a little on yourself as well.

    To each his own, of course. And again, the Pepper Blaster does exactly what it's designed to do. No badmouthing here, just an observation that the old design does have some serious advantages over the new concept.

    pax
    Yes, very true about the Kimber Pepper Blaster: I was going to buy one for my wife, until I noticed the limitations that you articulated; you can't "walk-in" your spray to the BG's face. Useless.

    I then bought her a "Mace Pepper Gun" (in pink, so that few people would confuse it with a "real" gun; and it doesn't really look like a pink anodized S&W or Charter Arms firearm either). Unfortunately, it turned out to be too heavy and large for her purse (expensive too).

    I have found that the regular Mace models to be the best ("Mace Triple Action Pepper Spray"), but they are a little too large for a pocket, but they fit a purse nicely, and their "safety" is fumble free.

    I personally carry the "Streetwise" brand of 17% OC, 'cause it has a pocketclip and it's of a small diameter, and it fits neatly alongside my knife and LED flashlight in my rear pocket. I don't like the safety lever on these types of small OC cans, but ya can't have everything...

    -Bill
    Last edited by Will B. Droopy; February 23rd, 2010 at 08:27 PM. Reason: Clarity

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array Avenger's Avatar
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    I dont really have an opinion on this. People who carry OC spray do it for good justification and I condone it. I push it in my self-defense class. However, I do not carry OC spray. Yes, I know, practice what you preach and all that. Here is my justification for not carrying OC. I am trained extensively in MA. I have seen too many people get sprayed with OC and have no effect. However, most people do not have the training I have and carrying OC is a great non-lethal weapon. I just figure I really dont need it, and I am sure I am wrong, but I just care not to use it.

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Instead of wasting space on OC I just carry an extra firearm.......but that is just me.
    Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game Ike. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    I started carrying spray for 2 main reasons.

    1- I can't carry at work. I don't work in the nicest parts of town. I work at nigh, not the best time to be defenseless. I have had folks walk into my warehouses and ask for money, rides, etc.

    2- When I started seriously thinking about the consequences of carrying a gun I realized that I wanted to carry something else in case the danger did not rise to the level of deadly force. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    I also carry a knife and flash light too.

  9. #38
    Member Array JungleJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    Another example. Let’s say there is a 16 year old kid threatening me with a knife. While I may be able to justify lethal force there is a good chance that a jury would not see it my way. Using a gun on a kid armed with a knife isn’t going to look good. And on another note I am going to feel horrible. If there is a way to avoid having to use lethal force I would much prefer it. I don’t want someone’s life on my conscience even if I was legally and morally justified in taking it
    I agree with the other examples and both my wife and I carry Fox pepper spray. Rather then brawling it out or shooting them, I think it is a great option to be able to have.
    Someone with a knife will be looking at my gun though, age doesn't matter. I hope I never have to make that choice but that would be one situation that would raise it to that level.

  10. #39
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    I can see a prosecutor-probably in Mass, Cal, or Ny, if you had to shoot a BG with your Glock, commenting "he chose to kill him, The shooter had pepper spray with him, but CHOSE not use it. He chose to shoot with his deadly weapon instead."

    Now that being said I think there certainly is a place for pepper spray in my arsenal. I have some on my road bike for dog useage, just like the other poster in this thread. But I will be researching i t for regular useage.
    Last edited by maddyfish; February 23rd, 2010 at 08:58 PM. Reason: added content

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltyke View Post
    As a side note on when to use deadly force:

    My CWP Instructor told us if someone comes at you with fists, you must assume he's Joe Louis/Chuck Norris. If someone comes at you with a ball bat, you must assume he's going to cave in your skull. If someone comes at you with a knife, you must assume he's gonna carve you like a Thanksgiving turkey. If someone comes at you with a gun, you must assume he's gonna kill you dead. Act accordingly - the penalty for being wrong is kinda permanent.

    .
    A great way to articulate it! It is much like the way I think of it, but never so clearly. I think that's a great way to present it, plus a smattering of Tueller Drill.

    Thank you.
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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    A great way to articulate it!
    Thank a retired 25 year veteran of a local city police force who is 100% in favor of citizens being armed. A former Sheriff of my county also said (while in office), "If someone breaks into your occupied house, you may assume he's there to harm you, not to just rob you. Act accordingly."

  13. #42
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    I carry a key-chain unit & every time I walk my dog it is always "in hand" - OC is a very effective deterrent on most dogs.
    I keep a larger one (Fox Labs) in the vehicle.
    It is another tool in the self-defensive "Bag Of Tricks."

    If a person cannot imagine any scenario where "less than lethal" OC spray could prove potentially useful, (as in a best first option) then that person is likely and probably lacking in imagination.

    Just my personal and highly qualified opinion on that.

  14. #43
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    oc the way to go.

    Ive been working in corrections now for 8 years and have seen plenty of times where an unruly inmate has been sprayed with oc and it has always stopped their actions fast, most of the time if they are fighting with one another you just have to have it present and announce that you will spray them if they don't break it up and they will stop with out you actually getting involved hand to hand where you could get hurt,and yes i was sprayed with it for training and also when i was in the service and let me tell you that that stuff kicked my but both times and from my experience with it i carry it along with me even when i have my pistol with me because i feel confident that it could halt a situation if needed with out going to deadly force. now i know that when we use it in the prison there is no wind, so if used outdoors you have to take into consideration of which way the wind is blowing. i carry fox labs but in the prison we use saber red both are great.

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    My assigned fire station covers the local jails, Sheriff's training center, and state prison and I have seen the effects, and failures, of OC a few times. I have seen corrections officers walk through clouds of spray and drag coughing, snorting inmates out of cells. I have seen big angry inmates and deputies brought to their knees in puddles of tears and snot, and seen others simply wipe it off. I'm very sensitive to it and would no doubt end up slobbering on the floor if I was ever exposed again. If I was confronted with someone with spray, I imagine I would consider lethal force, since I know one shot would render me incapable of defending myself or preventing someone from walking up, taking my pistol (wiping the tears and snot off) and shooting me with it.

    Practically speaking, I like the size and the safety top on the MSI Mace pocket sized cannisters. I keep one in my EMS gear (for the angry dog scenario) and I have been toying with the idea of replacing my BUG with a Kimber spray. If the nurses at the local ER were allowed to carry some I bet that several of them would carry the Kimber, since it looks like a PDA or cell phone in the pocket of scrubs. Of course they would not carry those sprays in the weapons-free zone of the hospital.

  16. #45
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    I decided to make this thread because in the past couple days I have had two responses to posts I made about my choice to carry OC spray. On the recommendation of one of the mods I figured it would be good to make a thread on less lethal to get some other people’s perspective. First, a little back ground.

    When I started carrying a handgun I did not carry OC spray. I was still in the process of building my EDC kit and just didn’t see the need. I carried a gun, a folding knife (that I don’t consider a weapon but would use it as one if I was left no other choice) and a light. The reason I decided to start carrying the OC spray was because of a incident at work where someone threatened violence. While I would much prefer to carry a gun at work it’s not possible to I figured OC spray was better then nothing.

    Well, after carrying it around at work I got to thinking that I liked having another option for defense so I started carrying it even when I could carry my pistol. I decided to do this mainly for a couple reasons. First and foremost is because for me to deploy my handgun in self defense my life must be in danger. For me to deploy OC spray there just has to be a threat of physical harm, it doesn’t have to be life threatening.

    This is big for me. Just because I am the victim of a attack doesn’t mean that my life is in danger. For example a hand to hand fight. Let’s say that I am walking out of restaurant and have a belligerent customer that had a few to many drinks start hassling me. The guy pushes me a couple times and maybe even knocks me down. I’m not going to shoot him however I will hit him with the OC spray.

    Another example. Let’s say there is a 16 year old kid threatening me with a knife. While I may be able to justify lethal force there is a good chance that a jury would not see it my way. Using a gun on a kid armed with a knife isn’t going to look good. And on another note I am going to feel horrible. If there is a way to avoid having to use lethal force I would much prefer it. I don’t want someone’s life on my conscience even if I was legally and morally justified in taking it.

    Animals are another use. Even though I carry my 709 when I run I also carry my OC spray for dogs. Sure, I could shoot a dog if I were attacked but I REALLY don’t want to. If it was a vicious looking pit bull I would probably go ahead and shoot it but if it was a questionable mini schnauzer that wasn’t actively trying to attack me a quick blast of OC spray would probably solve the issue and I wouldn’t have to kill anything.

    Overall I think there are a lot of reasons to carry OC spray. I understand that a lot of people don’t and that’s fine. Everyone should carry what they feel comfortable with. What are your thoughts?
    Do you carry OC spray? Do you think less lethal is a good idea? Pro/Cons?
    A very well thought out and articulated post.

    For me, it boils down pretty simply. I carry a firearm for extreme situations. I also believe strongly in "escape routes". I will do anything possible to avoid confrontation or to avoid escalating a confrontation which I cannot avoid. It becomes a last resort. If all it would take is some OC spray, chances are, I could retreat or avoid the situation. I think that sometimes non-lethal weapons tend to do a few things: 1) escalate the situation, 2) piss off the attacker, and 3) give the user a false sense of security. I train with my firearms regularly, and practice situational awareness to the best of my ability. By no means am I very competent by many measurands, but I am better than average. That all being said, if I am in a situation where force is required, there's a very good chance that the choice of last resort - my gun - will be the weapon upon which I will depend. And I will do what is necessary to neutralize the threat to me or my family.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

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