Less Lethal Defense

This is a discussion on Less Lethal Defense within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Divebum47 For me, it boils down pretty simply. I carry a firearm for extreme situations. I also believe strongly in "escape routes". ...

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Thread: Less Lethal Defense

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum47 View Post
    For me, it boils down pretty simply. I carry a firearm for extreme situations. I also believe strongly in "escape routes". I will do anything possible to avoid confrontation or to avoid escalating a confrontation which I cannot avoid. It becomes a last resort. If all it would take is some OC spray, chances are, I could retreat or avoid the situation. I think that sometimes non-lethal weapons tend to do a few things: 1) escalate the situation, 2) piss off the attacker, and 3) give the user a false sense of security. I train with my firearms regularly, and practice situational awareness to the best of my ability. By no means am I very competent by many measurands, but I am better than average. That all being said, if I am in a situation where force is required, there's a very good chance that the choice of last resort - my gun - will be the weapon upon which I will depend. And I will do what is necessary to neutralize the threat to me or my family.
    Well said.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
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  3. #47
    Member Array mel5051's Avatar
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    Here in Michigan carrying actual trademark Mace is illegal for civilians. The watered down Pepper Spray is going to make a determined BG mad, and anyone on meth is going to laugh it off and come at you anyway.
    The States that allow the concentrated pepper spray/Mace are fine if that State allows you to be carrying it.
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    ďThe key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.Ē Evan Marshall

  4. #48
    Member Array hdawson's Avatar
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    Cool

    Surprising to read this thread, since just 4 days ago, I bght the "Sabre" self defense spray. It has a pocket clip so it would appear to be nothing more threatening than a pen in the pocket. It's a combination of red pepper spray, "cs" tear gas and also has a UV dye to aid in identification later. It was cheap at BassPro at Myrtle Beach, SC. I also carry a Kahr CW9 with CT laser. At 71 years old, some might see me as a defensless target.

  5. #49
    Member Array JustInCase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    I decided to make this thread because in the past couple days I have had two responses to posts I made about my choice to carry OC spray. On the recommendation of one of the mods I figured it would be good to make a thread on less lethal to get some other peopleís perspective. First, a little back ground.

    When I started carrying a handgun I did not carry OC spray. I was still in the process of building my EDC kit and just didnít see the need. I carried a gun, a folding knife (that I donít consider a weapon but would use it as one if I was left no other choice) and a light. The reason I decided to start carrying the OC spray was because of a incident at work where someone threatened violence. While I would much prefer to carry a gun at work itís not possible to I figured OC spray was better then nothing.

    Well, after carrying it around at work I got to thinking that I liked having another option for defense so I started carrying it even when I could carry my pistol. I decided to do this mainly for a couple reasons. First and foremost is because for me to deploy my handgun in self defense my life must be in danger. For me to deploy OC spray there just has to be a threat of physical harm, it doesnít have to be life threatening.

    This is big for me. Just because I am the victim of a attack doesnít mean that my life is in danger. For example a hand to hand fight. Letís say that I am walking out of restaurant and have a belligerent customer that had a few to many drinks start hassling me. The guy pushes me a couple times and maybe even knocks me down. Iím not going to shoot him however I will hit him with the OC spray.

    Another example. Letís say there is a 16 year old kid threatening me with a knife. While I may be able to justify lethal force there is a good chance that a jury would not see it my way. Using a gun on a kid armed with a knife isnít going to look good. And on another note I am going to feel horrible. If there is a way to avoid having to use lethal force I would much prefer it. I donít want someoneís life on my conscience even if I was legally and morally justified in taking it.

    Animals are another use. Even though I carry my 709 when I run I also carry my OC spray for dogs. Sure, I could shoot a dog if I were attacked but I REALLY donít want to. If it was a vicious looking pit bull I would probably go ahead and shoot it but if it was a questionable mini schnauzer that wasnít actively trying to attack me a quick blast of OC spray would probably solve the issue and I wouldnít have to kill anything.

    Overall I think there are a lot of reasons to carry OC spray. I understand that a lot of people donít and thatís fine. Everyone should carry what they feel comfortable with. What are your thoughts?
    Do you carry OC spray? Do you think less lethal is a good idea? Pro/Cons?
    cuz no other breed can look vicious huh???

    good post till this...

    but whatever...
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  6. #50
    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustInCase View Post
    cuz no other breed can look vicious huh???

    good post till this...

    but whatever...
    Yes, because that is what I said...
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

  7. #51
    Member Array MikeFontenot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum47 View Post
    I will do anything possible to avoid confrontation or to avoid escalating a confrontation which I cannot avoid. It becomes a last resort. If all it would take is some OC spray, chances are, I could retreat or avoid the situation.
    What if you heard some unusual noise out in your driveway...you go out, and find a guy trying to hotwire your car. Assuming that in your state, you can't use lethal force in that case (to protect your property), what would you do? Would you "retreat, or avoid the situation"?

    I think THAT'S the kind of situation where pepper spray might be a useful tool. But IF you decide to do that, it would be prudent to be prepared to defend against an attack by the perf in response.

    Mike Fontenot

  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeFontenot View Post
    What if you heard some unusual noise out in your driveway...you go out, and find a guy trying to hotwire your car. Assuming that in your state, you can't use lethal force in that case (to protect your property), what would you do? Would you "retreat, or avoid the situation"?

    I think THAT'S the kind of situation where pepper spray might be a useful tool. But IF you decide to do that, it would be prudent to be prepared to defend against an attack by the perf in response.

    Mike Fontenot
    RETREAT, call 911. Anything else could be construed as escalation and void a possible claim of self defense, if deadly force does have to be employed.

    I am all for defending the lives of myself and others, but I am not going to spend the next 20 years in jail over a guy stealing my car.

    Now, if a 1-year old child was in the back seat...you can probably go right to deadly force.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
    ---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
    ---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately. ---

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeFontenot View Post
    What if you heard some unusual noise out in your driveway...you go out, and find a guy trying to hotwire your car. Assuming that in your state, you can't use lethal force in that case (to protect your property), what would you do? Would you "retreat, or avoid the situation"?

    I think THAT'S the kind of situation where pepper spray might be a useful tool. But IF you decide to do that, it would be prudent to be prepared to defend against an attack by the perf in response.

    Mike Fontenot
    First of all, I live in a Castle Doctrine state, and in Ohio, the Castle Doctrine extends to your car. But I believe you have to be in control of or in the car in order to use lethal force.

    In the scenario you describe, I would most likely retreat and call 911. Not because I'm afraid of confrontation, but because I don't want to be responsible for the death of anyone, including a would be thief, unless that someone directly threatened my family or me. If I ever have to shoot someone I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror and tell the person looking back that I took every prudent measure I could prior to using deadly force. I need to live with that person looking back. Now, the question becomes, "could I shoot if I had too?" I spent 18 months in a hostile fire zone including 6 months attached to a riverboat squadron. That is the primary reason I have the attitudes I do, and the primary reason I am confident in my own capabilities.

    I'm not a hero, a cop or much in favor of the macho crap. I am no longer an idealist. I don't believe myself to be a coward. I am a died in the wool conservative, and supporter of the entire Constitution and all of it's amendments. But I can't think of anything I posses other than my own life and that of my family, that would be worth killing someone over.

    Sorry for the rant, hope your question is answered.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  10. #54
    Member Array hdawson's Avatar
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    Cool

    Well said, Vet.

  11. #55
    Member Array purpledragon's Avatar
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    I carry OC spray in my purse, not on my person, although I will put it in a pocket is I am having to leave my gun in the care for some reason.
    NRA, GOA, GRNC member
    "Both the oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms."
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  12. #56
    Member Array eggs's Avatar
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    I agree I think I'll be up a couple (one for the wife too) later today.

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