Legal problems and EDC mods - Page 2

Legal problems and EDC mods

This is a discussion on Legal problems and EDC mods within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I don't think there is any problem with the accepted "norm" of reliability improvements, Steel guide rods, heavy springs, better sights, better grip surface etc. ...

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Thread: Legal problems and EDC mods

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    I don't think there is any problem with the accepted "norm" of reliability improvements, Steel guide rods, heavy springs, better sights, better grip surface etc.
    Carrying a "race" gun may give a prosecutor some grounds to go down the "your intent was to have the most deadly, quickest cycling killing machine available" path. With the correct professional whiteness you could most likely defeat that reasoning but why face it when there are many top line carry guns/service pistols that are intended for the job and recognized as such being considered "normal" to most courts including the every day mods used by Leo and citizens alike.
    Who is John Galt?

    Sometimes there's justice, sometimes there's just us...


  2. #17
    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
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    Carry what you are comfortable, competent, and confident with. Your number one goal is to stay alive at the end of the day. That said I wouldn't go lighter than the recommended 4.5-5lb trigger simply because adrenaline kills fine motor skills and people grip things when scared.

    Ammo? I say carry what law enforcement carries. If it's not overkill for them its not overkill for you. Even if it's not what your local department carries you will be able to say "the police department in [insert city or government agency] carries it, do you think they are using excessive force?
    To those that paid for my freedom,
    I WILL NEVER FORGET.

    As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array bsnow's Avatar
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    Just to stay on the safe side other than night sights, I keep mine stock so far. However I am probably going to replace my G26 stock recoil spring guide rod with a steel one, and any other Glock I buy. This can only increase the reliabily of the pistol.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. PSALM 144:1

    I CLING to my guns and my Bible.

  4. #19
    Member Array DIXIETWISTER's Avatar
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    Are you a member of a range??? have you ever fired at a human silhouette? how often do you fire your weapon?? YOU are some gun nut that has been looking for trouble...wanting to KILL why do you carry 17 rounds of DEADLY Ammo in your gun. A GLOCK you carry a glock is than not what the police carry?are you trying to play a policeman? ladies and gentleman of the jury............

    If i ever god forbid have to use lethal force to defend myself or family you can bet that i dont give a rats azz about my defense. judged by twelve verses carried by six applies. But im not to worried about that around here where i live. most everyone is pro gun.
    You may not like guns. You may choose not to own one. That is your right.
    You might not believe in God. That is your choice.
    However, if someone breaks into your home at 3AM the first two things you are going to do are:
    1) Call someone with a gun.
    2)Pray they get there in time." - A wise man

  5. #20
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIXIETWISTER View Post
    Are you a member of a range??? have you ever fired at a human silhouette? how often do you fire your weapon?? YOU are some gun nut that has been looking for trouble...wanting to KILL why do you carry 17 rounds of DEADLY Ammo in your gun. A GLOCK you carry a glock is than not what the police carry?are you trying to play a policeman? ladies and gentleman of the jury............

    If i ever god forbid have to use lethal force to defend myself or family you can bet that i dont give a rats azz about my defense. judged by twelve verses carried by six applies. But im not to worried about that around here where i live. most everyone is pro gun.

    Add to that: "You mean, sir, that you shoot in a competition called IPSC, where you purposely shoot at human targets? And, in this "game", whomever can "kill" the most human targets by shooting them through the HEART or LUNGS -- and in the shortest amount of time -- actually WINS? And you, sir, you say you feel a great sense of accomplishment and pride in competing in this "contest"? Hmmmm." [Attorney looks from you to the jury, and shakes his head in shock and disbelief].

    The attorney then looks back at you; "So -- I want to get this perfectly straight -- you regularly practice shooting so that you can become increasingly more proficient at gunning-down and KILLING innocent human beings on our streets -- even to the extent of firing hundreds of rounds a month in combat training and competitions? Why, you sick homicidal son of a $#@&, you make me sick!" [Attorney walks away in disgust at the mere sight of you.]



    But, more seriously guys, my own thought is that, especially in civil suits*, keep all "ammo" away from the opposing attorney(s) -- that ammo being your Grim Reaper handgrips, clever but violent mottos engraved on the slide, hair triggers, and modified/reloaded cartridges -- 'cause many attorneys will use ANYTHING against you to win.

    And, above all, simply make sure you are only involved in a righteous life-or-death shoot; NEVER shoot to protect property, even that classic shiny Jaguar convertible you spent three years restoring -- no matter what your own state's self-defense laws may say; it's just not worth it on a financial or emotional level.

    -Bill

    *The criminal justice system itself is more fair than most people imagine; the civil tort side of things is a completely different matter entirely (i.e., even when you win, you lose: The attorney's fees will completely break you. I won't even go into the emotional devastation of watching your life's saving eaten up as your lawyer's invoice comes in the mail each month... ).

    PS: And yes, I was kidding about the IPSC scenario; if your lawyer can't suppress or nullify an opposing attorney's vilification of your shooting practice, then get another attorney!

  6. #21
    Member Array Benthic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PastorPack View Post
    Massad Ayoob did a whole article about this several months back (Can't remember the magazine, but I think it might have been Concealed Carry or something like that) and he listed a number of cases where mods like trigger jobs were protrayed as hair triggers in court. The point seemed to be to take a justifiable shooting and make it look like an accidental shooting so the BG's family could bilk the insurance companies.
    I haven't read the article in question here, but I did take the LFI 1 class from Massad and we talked about this very topic a fair amount. His advice, based on all the cases he's testified in, was that any modification that would allow you to more accurately and competently operate the pistol would be fine. Things like night sights or a smoother (but not lighter) trigger were not likely, in his opinion, to get you into trouble.

    Brian

  7. #22
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    Featured in some Massad Ayoob stories. Your enemy and hostile lawyers and prosecutors and judges and juries can potentially if not possibly or probably destroy you with such a Hair-Trigger technicality, like you holding a grudge and using a Judge. It depends if you get some wannabe psychobabblers who view and listen to Doprah and Dr. Phil and want you to pay the bills.

  8. #23
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  9. #24
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    I leave my guns at manufacturers' specs. I don't want to offer "complications" to anyone who would investigate, or prosecute. If you kill someone it's a homicide investigation - the police and DA don't start with the presumption of self-defense, though you might, or we might. That's simply your story.

    This is as serious as investigations get.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    If people put 1/4 the effort into understanding use of force laws as they did into how to effect lethal force, questions like this wouldn't need to be asked.

    People insist on making a simple issue complicated by their instinctive dislike of the legal system, thinking that because it involves "law" it must be insanely complex, and they must think as convoluted as possible to try to wrap their heads around it.

    But just continue as you are doing.

    Buzzards got to eat, same as worms.

  11. #26
    Member Array alienbogey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk45c View Post
    Have there been any cases where an individual involved in a SD shooting got into trouble in court for modifying his/her gun.
    The above is the question the OP asked and in 25 or so posts the only ones that come close to addressing the question have said (approximately):

    "I can't think of any"
    "Massad Ayoob recently wrote an article about it"
    "Massad Ayoob offered some opinions in a class I took from him"

    I've seen this question asked before many times in forums and have yet to see anyone refer to an actual court case or provide a hard link to a published article that refers to an actual court case.

    What is seen every time this question is asked is lots of people saying how they have modified their firearm, or have not modified their firearm, and why, or why not, and what the prosecutor might do, or might not do, etc.

    Anyone have a link or magazine/date of the recent Ayoob article?

    Anyone know of any cases where an individual involved in a SD shooting got into trouble in court for modifying his/her gun?
    Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    A lot of the issues with asking for examples is that examples are only usually available when the case when to trial, was appealed and the case merited reporting because a decision was reached by a higher court.

    If the case ends without trial for some reason - a plea, a dismissal, pre-trial program, whatever - the reason for this disposition may not be known to anyone not immediately involved.

    Someone may plead because the facts of his case are not given to a favorable disposition of the case due to the defendant not having deescalated as he should have, defendant's statements in the aftermath are not helpful, defendant had a history with the deceased with made a claim so self defense doubtful...and the hardware may not have been helpful as well...but you'll never know about it.

    The public just knows that in a particular case, someone plead out, or the case was dropped by the state.

    99% of cases don't get resolved at trial. They plea out, and the details of the plea - and the reasons for it - are only know to those who participate.

    If you ever have time, go to your local criminal court and see how things work.

    When the Judge comes onto the bench after doing conferences with the lawyers in chambers, he puts the agreement on the record, and that's it.

    Unfortunately, this is a subject in which you have to trust people in the business to give you their best idea of what is going to happen in a given situation based on their experience with the system, familiarity with the issues and extrapolation of what has happened in similar cases.

    Reported cases, cases you can look up for caselaw on an issue, are a very small percentage of the actual cases in the system at any given time.

    EVERYONE would love to wrap this up in a nice package were the answer is clear, but doing so would be dishonest.

    If you don't like the opinion of people familiar with the area, and how such things are applied, don't take it.

    However, that doesn't mean your opinion will have the same weight as the opinion of those in the know when it comes down to the point of offering any explanations when they are needed...

    Ayoob's books, specifically some of the explanations in his books for things like justifying JHP to a prosecutor, showing how carrying a spare magazine is not excessive....were extremely helpful in convincing a NYC DA not to prosecute a friend of mine who mistakenly got caught with a pistol in 'da city'.

    I'll go with Ayoob's opinions based on my experience in making sure he didn't do time or end up with a criminal record.

    Your milage may vary.

  13. #28
    New Member Array Builder58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alienbogey View Post
    Anyone have a link or magazine/date of the recent Ayoob article
    Check the November 2009 issue of Combat Handguns. The cover lead-in is "Court Resistant Guns -- Shooting down false accusations -- 8 case reports".

    I am of the opinion that if it is justified self defense, it shouldn't matter if you use a race gun, box stock gun, a knife, or your fingernails, but I'm not going to be on every jury. YMMV

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array paul45's Avatar
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    I carry custom built 1911's. Nothing is "STOCK"or factory direct. If it is a justified shooting, I am not worried.
    "Being PARANOID is just plain smart thinking when they are really out to get you!"

  15. #30
    Member Array Shadwboxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alienbogey View Post
    The above is the question the OP asked and in 25 or so posts the only ones that come close to addressing the question have said (approximately):

    "I can't think of any"
    "Massad Ayoob recently wrote an article about it"
    "Massad Ayoob offered some opinions in a class I took from him"

    I've seen this question asked before many times in forums and have yet to see anyone refer to an actual court case or provide a hard link to a published article that refers to an actual court case.

    What is seen every time this question is asked is lots of people saying how they have modified their firearm, or have not modified their firearm, and why, or why not, and what the prosecutor might do, or might not do, etc.

    Anyone have a link or magazine/date of the recent Ayoob article?

    Anyone know of any cases where an individual involved in a SD shooting got into trouble in court for modifying his/her gun?
    His articles are in combat handguns and are titled:
    "Self Defense and the Law"

    I also took Lethal Force Institute from Mas 10 years ago. A fantastic experience. I never miss reading these articles as they come out.

    Anyway, here are links to a few articles that give specific examples:

    1. Tactical-Life.com Unwise Actions Hang You In Court

    2. Tactical-Life.com After A Shooting, What To Reveal

    3. Tactical-Life.com Too Much Gun and Malicious Intent

    4. Tactical-Life.com Beating the “Rambo” Rap

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