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Legal problems and EDC mods

4K views 32 replies 26 participants last post by  hk45c 
#1 ·
Ok, I have searched and all the threads I've read have not touched this issue. Also, I'm not trying to start any fights or stir the pot. I'm only looking for facts. So here is my quesion:

Have there been any cases where an individual involved in a SD shooting got into trouble in court for modifying his/her gun. I've read many posts here with this gem but I have yet to see evidence to back this up.

As always, if I have missed a post I would be greatful if someone would post the link. And please guys, no flaming or arguing I really want this thread to stay open!! Thanks :bigsmile:
 
#2 ·
No cases I can think of.

I will say that if you modify your EDC make sure its totally reliable and the action is safe (I.E. not AD due to mechanical failure).
 
#3 ·
I don't know of any cases where it has acutally happened however i have seen a few topics on it meaning that it's something that people worry about. Because of this my EDC is 100 percent totally stock. I even took off my grip sleeve.
 
#5 ·
Yah, my EDC is and will stay totaly stock as well, the only thing I plan to change is my sights....I like the heine straight eight...but I was just curious about the origins of the issue.

Thanks for the responses so far guys.
 
#7 ·
Massad Ayoob did a whole article about this several months back (Can't remember the magazine, but I think it might have been Concealed Carry or something like that) and he listed a number of cases where mods like trigger jobs were protrayed as hair triggers in court. The point seemed to be to take a justifiable shooting and make it look like an accidental shooting so the BG's family could bilk the insurance companies.
 
#10 ·
I don't worry about it as long as there's no "do it yourself" modifications that make the weapon dangerous. ie: Home trigger jobs etc. :wink:
 
#11 ·
I believe that the argments would be easily countered.
As for me, I will do what I think I should to give me the best chance to survive. That includes mods, and handloaded ammo if that was the best in my gun.

The gun writers need something sensational now and then to show their expertise. I'll worry about such things if I survive. Idon't expect to ever get into a shootout anyway, but if I do the lawyers can eat cake.

Regards,
Jerry
 
#12 ·
:haha: If ya shootin a Glock, it's good to go outa the box, why even worry bout dem modifications, cause ya can't improve on purrrrrrrfection...:haha:
 
#13 ·
Not a problem in my mind.

The only arguments about modifications seem to be the 'hair trigger' circumstance that brings on an 'accidental' shooting which triggers the claim of culpable negligence. Then the late lamented's family dog piles on for a piece of the settlement.

That's not going very far if the respondent testifies he (or she) intentionally shot and the reasons justifying the self defense.

I could see a problem in one of those "... we were wrestling for the gun and it went off..." scenarios.

It depends on how you live your life and how you conduct yourself.

None of this addresses the issue of having one's $2500 super sexy pistol in the court's custody for between three weeks and twenty years.
 
#14 ·
None of this addresses the issue of having one's $2500 super sexy pistol in the court's custody for between three weeks and twenty years.
Another reason to carry a Glock! :ahhhhh: I would not worry about night sites. A competition trigger might make things interesting. I do some minor things to mine, but nothing that I would worry about having to explain. The way I look at it justified is justified.
 
#15 ·
My two cents

I would think some minor mods wouldnt be an issue. Truthfully, they'll pull any straw they can. If you carry target rounds they'll paint you as a guy who uses ammo designed to "shoot all the way through a person", if you use hollow points youll be painted as the guy who uses bullets designed to "Shred a persons innards".

If they decide to prosecute, they're going to fight it and they'll us anything potential foothold they can.

Alex!
 
#16 ·
I don't think there is any problem with the accepted "norm" of reliability improvements, Steel guide rods, heavy springs, better sights, better grip surface etc.
Carrying a "race" gun may give a prosecutor some grounds to go down the "your intent was to have the most deadly, quickest cycling killing machine available" path. With the correct professional whiteness you could most likely defeat that reasoning but why face it when there are many top line carry guns/service pistols that are intended for the job and recognized as such being considered "normal" to most courts including the every day mods used by Leo and citizens alike.
 
#17 ·
Carry what you are comfortable, competent, and confident with. Your number one goal is to stay alive at the end of the day. That said I wouldn't go lighter than the recommended 4.5-5lb trigger simply because adrenaline kills fine motor skills and people grip things when scared.

Ammo? I say carry what law enforcement carries. If it's not overkill for them its not overkill for you. Even if it's not what your local department carries you will be able to say "the police department in [insert city or government agency] carries it, do you think they are using excessive force?
 
#18 ·
Just to stay on the safe side other than night sights, I keep mine stock so far. However I am probably going to replace my G26 stock recoil spring guide rod with a steel one, and any other Glock I buy. This can only increase the reliabily of the pistol.
 
#19 ·
Are you a member of a range??? have you ever fired at a human silhouette? how often do you fire your weapon?? YOU are some gun nut that has been looking for trouble...wanting to KILL why do you carry 17 rounds of DEADLY Ammo in your gun. A GLOCK you carry a glock is than not what the police carry?are you trying to play a policeman? ladies and gentleman of the jury............

If i ever god forbid have to use lethal force to defend myself or family you can bet that i dont give a rats azz about my defense. judged by twelve verses carried by six applies. But im not to worried about that around here where i live. most everyone is pro gun.
 
#20 ·
Add to that: "You mean, sir, that you shoot in a competition called IPSC, where you purposely shoot at human targets? And, in this "game", whomever can "kill" the most human targets by shooting them through the HEART or LUNGS -- and in the shortest amount of time -- actually WINS? And you, sir, you say you feel a great sense of accomplishment and pride in competing in this "contest"? Hmmmm." [Attorney looks from you to the jury, and shakes his head in shock and disbelief].

The attorney then looks back at you; "So -- I want to get this perfectly straight -- you regularly practice shooting so that you can become increasingly more proficient at gunning-down and KILLING innocent human beings on our streets -- even to the extent of firing hundreds of rounds a month in combat training and competitions? Why, you sick homicidal son of a $#@&, you make me sick!" [Attorney walks away in disgust at the mere sight of you.]

:aargh4:

But, more seriously guys, my own thought is that, especially in civil suits*, keep all "ammo" away from the opposing attorney(s) -- that ammo being your Grim Reaper handgrips, clever but violent mottos engraved on the slide, hair triggers, and modified/reloaded cartridges -- 'cause many attorneys will use ANYTHING against you to win.

And, above all, simply make sure you are only involved in a righteous life-or-death shoot; NEVER shoot to protect property, even that classic shiny Jaguar convertible you spent three years restoring -- no matter what your own state's self-defense laws may say; it's just not worth it on a financial or emotional level.

-Bill

*The criminal justice system itself is more fair than most people imagine; the civil tort side of things is a completely different matter entirely (i.e., even when you win, you lose: The attorney's fees will completely break you. I won't even go into the emotional devastation of watching your life's saving eaten up as your lawyer's invoice comes in the mail each month... :mad:).

PS: And yes, I was kidding about the IPSC scenario; if your lawyer can't suppress or nullify an opposing attorney's vilification of your shooting practice, then get another attorney!
 
#22 ·
Featured in some Massad Ayoob stories. Your enemy and hostile lawyers and prosecutors and judges and juries can potentially if not possibly or probably destroy you with such a Hair-Trigger technicality, like you holding a grudge and using a Judge. It depends if you get some wannabe psychobabblers who view and listen to Doprah and Dr. Phil and want you to pay the bills.
 
#24 ·
I leave my guns at manufacturers' specs. I don't want to offer "complications" to anyone who would investigate, or prosecute. If you kill someone it's a homicide investigation - the police and DA don't start with the presumption of self-defense, though you might, or we might. That's simply your story.

This is as serious as investigations get.
 
#25 ·
If people put 1/4 the effort into understanding use of force laws as they did into how to effect lethal force, questions like this wouldn't need to be asked.

People insist on making a simple issue complicated by their instinctive dislike of the legal system, thinking that because it involves "law" it must be insanely complex, and they must think as convoluted as possible to try to wrap their heads around it.

But just continue as you are doing.

Buzzards got to eat, same as worms.
 
#26 ·
Have there been any cases where an individual involved in a SD shooting got into trouble in court for modifying his/her gun.
The above is the question the OP asked and in 25 or so posts the only ones that come close to addressing the question have said (approximately):

"I can't think of any"
"Massad Ayoob recently wrote an article about it"
"Massad Ayoob offered some opinions in a class I took from him"

I've seen this question asked before many times in forums and have yet to see anyone refer to an actual court case or provide a hard link to a published article that refers to an actual court case.

What is seen every time this question is asked is lots of people saying how they have modified their firearm, or have not modified their firearm, and why, or why not, and what the prosecutor might do, or might not do, etc.

Anyone have a link or magazine/date of the recent Ayoob article?

Anyone know of any cases where an individual involved in a SD shooting got into trouble in court for modifying his/her gun?
 
#28 ·
Anyone have a link or magazine/date of the recent Ayoob article
Check the November 2009 issue of Combat Handguns. The cover lead-in is "Court Resistant Guns -- Shooting down false accusations -- 8 case reports".

I am of the opinion that if it is justified self defense, it shouldn't matter if you use a race gun, box stock gun, a knife, or your fingernails, but I'm not going to be on every jury. YMMV :smile:
 
#27 ·
A lot of the issues with asking for examples is that examples are only usually available when the case when to trial, was appealed and the case merited reporting because a decision was reached by a higher court.

If the case ends without trial for some reason - a plea, a dismissal, pre-trial program, whatever - the reason for this disposition may not be known to anyone not immediately involved.

Someone may plead because the facts of his case are not given to a favorable disposition of the case due to the defendant not having deescalated as he should have, defendant's statements in the aftermath are not helpful, defendant had a history with the deceased with made a claim so self defense doubtful...and the hardware may not have been helpful as well...but you'll never know about it.

The public just knows that in a particular case, someone plead out, or the case was dropped by the state.

99% of cases don't get resolved at trial. They plea out, and the details of the plea - and the reasons for it - are only know to those who participate.

If you ever have time, go to your local criminal court and see how things work.

When the Judge comes onto the bench after doing conferences with the lawyers in chambers, he puts the agreement on the record, and that's it.

Unfortunately, this is a subject in which you have to trust people in the business to give you their best idea of what is going to happen in a given situation based on their experience with the system, familiarity with the issues and extrapolation of what has happened in similar cases.

Reported cases, cases you can look up for caselaw on an issue, are a very small percentage of the actual cases in the system at any given time.

EVERYONE would love to wrap this up in a nice package were the answer is clear, but doing so would be dishonest.

If you don't like the opinion of people familiar with the area, and how such things are applied, don't take it.

However, that doesn't mean your opinion will have the same weight as the opinion of those in the know when it comes down to the point of offering any explanations when they are needed...

Ayoob's books, specifically some of the explanations in his books for things like justifying JHP to a prosecutor, showing how carrying a spare magazine is not excessive....were extremely helpful in convincing a NYC DA not to prosecute a friend of mine who mistakenly got caught with a pistol in 'da city'.

I'll go with Ayoob's opinions based on my experience in making sure he didn't do time or end up with a criminal record.

Your milage may vary.
 
#31 ·
If you have ever actually served on a civil jury, then you will probably be much more likely to consider this question than if you have not. There are alot of folks out there that think the fact that you have a gun AT ALL makes you a bad guy. A few of those folks may very well be on YOUR jury. There are alot of folks out there who don't know the difference between a revolver and a semi-auto, much less what a trigger job is for. A few of them may very well be on YOUR jury. The plantiff's lawyer will be trying just as hard as your lawyer to get the jury loaded with folks that will be on his side. Not to mention that in alot of cases, his paycheck will depend on whether or not he WINS, while your lawyer's paycheck will not. Lady justice is blind, but nobody ever said she was fair.
 
#32 ·
Additional excellent reading on this subject ( amoung many others) are Mas Ayoobs books. Ihighly recommend both of these:



 
#33 ·
Thanks for the info everyone. Once I get a little free time I think I read one of Massad's books. The reason this is so interesting to me is the more I learn about the criminal justice system and the urban legends (like if the cops don't read your rights you go free LOL) the more I question "conventional wisdom". I really appreciate the responses.
 
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