Concealed carry, knife clips and a legal view...as in MA

Concealed carry, knife clips and a legal view...as in MA

This is a discussion on Concealed carry, knife clips and a legal view...as in MA within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Friday I had an interesting conversation with a LEO (Sherrifs Deputy) friend of mine as in regard to civilians who carry knives and _how_ they ...

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Thread: Concealed carry, knife clips and a legal view...as in MA

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Concealed carry, knife clips and a legal view...as in MA

    Friday I had an interesting conversation with a LEO (Sherrifs Deputy) friend of mine as in regard to civilians who carry knives and _how_ they widely tend to carry them.


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    Specifically as related to concealed carry and legality here in MA, but the subject matter is all of the US applicable.

    There is no law/statute that I have ever been able to find nor that he is aware of (he's a MA state police certified LTC instructor) as related to the manner in which a knife may or must be carried.

    I had commented to him that I notice in MA a _lot_ of people carrying knives as overtly/openly clipped to their pant or short pocket.
    Where and how I grew up it was pretty much everybody that had a knife but (!) key difference being that they were _not_ a norm to display and even if it did have a clip of some sort it was not clipped so as to be seen seen and not concealed.
    As my own norm I have for decades always carried a knife and I keep it clipped among my body in a specific manner that largely conceals it either in full if not to such a degree that you would have to study my person (exterior) into order to locate it.
    Further I do this for sake of tactical advantage, an item I'd learned long ago is long term best and most effective.

    He agreed with me on all points including my observation and view that concealed is and should be _concealed_ (!).

    He went on to say that in this state as per statute if a person ('Mary') were to see another ('Joe') as with their knife, which by statute definition is a weapon (!), clipped to a pocket or even as kept in a belt mounted sheath AND that person/Mary were to develop a sense of anxiety/fear as a result about another/Joe AND to such a degree that the person/Mary felt an immediate desire/need to separate them self from another/Joe...THEN by law/statute that person/Mary has suffered by definition a "assault" as by another/Joe.

    Seriously.

    He'd went on to add that this is no different in view and function than that of brandishing such as related to open carry of a firearm.
    Here in MA there is no law on the books against open carry of a firearm but you try and do that, even as a plain clothed or off-duty LEO and you run the chance of being dinged with a brandishing charge.

    Equally serious.

    All of the above I'd already known and understood as fact prior to the LEO telling me same.

    I'd then commented to him that it is odd to me that so many people carry their knives as such in that manner if their intent is to be 'armed'. Literally I see everyone and their great grandma carrying all manner of knives large and small clipped to pockets (modern) or as cased/sheathed in belt worn carriers.
    In doing so they are not actively concealed (!).
    They actively announce to the world; Hey look at me! I am to some degree armed and I specifically have a knife of some sort and by that value.

    Also they alert BGs that they have tools on board of value AND to what degree they are enhanced as toward defense AND the type and on-body location of their defense AND by that give the BG a lead/advantage as toward nullifying that defense knowing what side, arm, hand and exactly where on their persons body (pocket) to attack for maximal return in nullification of 'threat'.

    The LEO knodded and verbally agreed with me.

    He went on to state that in his own experience most commonly people who carry that way have, and I quote; "Little to no formal concealed carry education and/or weapons training".
    Once more his words not mine. Also know he is also as within his sherrifs dept. a weapons and tactics instructor and doubly does same externally for civilians and para-military training (LEO and .gov).

    I then shared with him my own primary and long preferred method of carrying a knife with a clip as I have been carrying a knife for defense/combat (fight to survive) purposes since my mother mandated as much toward walking alone to and from school among our neighborhood when I was age 8. Thirty two years later I continue to do same. My knife is for all practical purposes kept and carried invisible to the eye.
    He agreed that my method was a good and functional manner of carry for said purpose.

    We then talked about carry of a sidearm as well as OC/CS, and the adapted and specialized carrier I use to obscure and conceal carry that product...As well as my own personal preference and choice to carry IWB as rather than by OWB holster when on the street for maximal concealment function.

    Those too have the _exact_ same legal conditions as applied to the Joe and Mary scenario above.
    They are by definition per the statute viewed as being "weapons" and weapons are to be kept cased and/or concealed as specifically related to on body carry.

    Method of carry for OC/CS type aerosol product such as this on a keychain may by personal method and norm not meet the definition of being carried as concealed.


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    At the end of our conversation I came to a good understanding and confirmation of basically going in what I had already known and personally kept in mind as a manner of every day carry practice:

    1. If the tool/device has no other reasonable specific purpose by design intent but to be used for self-defense against another, as it is in the immediate kept/carried on or about (purse, keychain, etc.) your person then it is and does by legal view meet the definition of and become by statute an 'arm' as to be a 'weapon'.
    Regardless of the tool being mechanized, aerosol or edged.

    2. How others may or may not view you and your manner AND by that view that form an opinion about you and or your manner, then very well you (meaning ME!) may per my own prior choice(s) influence the outcome of view by law enforcement and legality to the letter of statute.
    Assault of a person is nothing more than to place a person into fear. Battery of course is to make physical contact with a person so as to place them into fear, hence the common pairing of the legal term; 'Assault & Battery'.
    It is a very fine line to walk between [url=http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5792190&postcount=9]innocuous GG with knife and that questionable looking guy with a knife is scaring me.
    It all comes down to PERCEPTION.
    How a person other than ourselves may or might perceive as in view us and/or our action as _overt_ in the immediate.

    3. Concealed means _CONCEALED_! Period.
    Actions including manners of carry that are covert and thus unseen, as in to be concealed, are not detected not detectable. By that an individual person gains a significant and broad amount of advantage both by tactics as well as by legal view.



    How do you keep and carry your knife, and why?

    - Janq

    "Everybody is suspect." - My own personal view, as learned through life experience
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing


  2. #2
    Member Array reyno2ac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    How do you keep and carry your knife, and why?
    I carry a spyderco tenacious clipped in my back left pocket. I carry it there for a couple reasons:
    -My front pockets are full(flashlight, keys, phone)
    -In case I cant get to my gun on my right side
    -It's comfortable
    -It's easy to reach

    I've never worried about someone seeing it and being in fear of their safety. It is kind of rural around here and when I'm on campus it is in the Engineering Tech building where I would say at least half the students have a knife clipped in their pocket.

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    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    I carry my knife generally clipped on the inside of my strong side front pocket or back pocket. Sometime it is covered by my shirt but most times its not. I guess I carry it this way because I don't consider it a weapon, I consider it a tool. Also, because I see a ton of people that carry knives this way it generally doesnt even get a second look. Although recently I have found myself using the blade of my gerber cruicial tool (That is clipped inside my weak side pocket) more when there are people around because my other folder does look a bit intimidating and I have gotten a few look when I've taken it out.
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

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    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reyno2ac View Post
    when I'm on campus it is in the Engineering Tech building where I would say at least half the students have a knife clipped in their pocket.
    I was thinking the same thing. I am a IT guy for a college. I would say at least 50 percent of the students and the majority if the staff and faculty here carry a knife in exactly the same way. I don't think most people think of them as weapons. Kinda off how that works though because if I was walking around with a fixed blade hanging on my belt that would definetly be considered a weapon. Funny how perception works.
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

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    Interesting conversation...
    My Kershaw is clipped to my weak side front pocket.
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    Since the folding, lockable knife with a clip skyrocketed in popularity 10-15 years ago, I think it's become de rigeur to carry it with the clip showing, as if it's a membership badge. What I find amusing is the incredible amount of edged junk that is frequently attached to the clip.

    I nearly always carry the folding lockers discreetly out of sight, yet readily available. No need to impress (or tip off) anyone but myself.
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    Member Array Thegear234's Avatar
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    I carry a wide variety of different knives. I will always have some form of society friendly knife which is a boker subcom as a money clip so to have it for utility. I carry a fixed blade (most of the time not always) for any "social" encounters which is usually a Blackhawk Crucible FX2 or Kabar TDI. When I can't carry a fixed blade such as when in school or mainly church or just dressier ocassions I carry a Spyderco Endura Wave in a forward wave draw in my waistband.
    Live in yellow or die in white.

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    Member Array cl00bie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    How do you keep and carry your knife, and why?
    I keep and carry my knife concealed in my weak side front pocket when I'm carrying my pistol, and in my strong side pocket when i'm not.

    I keep it completely concealed (except when I take it out to open a package or something) because I want the element of surprise if I ever have to use it.

    I carry a particularly small knife (a SOG "Blink".) because I balance effectiveness in combat (next to none) with not alarming the populace.

    I had originally tried a Flash II, but I figured it looked too "scary".
    Last edited by cl00bie; March 1st, 2010 at 07:37 PM. Reason: Meant to say "not alarming the populace"
    -Tony

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    Member Array alexcantslee's Avatar
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    Maybe its just because Im from Texas but I think having the clip showing on a pocket knife is a pretty far cry from destroying your tactical advantage over a potential attacker.

    Do you need to hide your cell phone since that can be used to call for help after an attack?

    Do you hide your keys so your attacker wont know you have a way to drive off?

    Do you take your shoes off, you could kick someone in the face with those.

    If you have a tattoo of a knife you better cover it with a bandaid. Better yet, skip the bandaid and go with tape. You dont want an attacker to know you've got medical training.

    Of course I jest...and people are free to do a they choose but to me hiding a knife clip for tactical superiority is bordering on paranoid. I wear a leatherman on my belt next to a flashlight. No one even notices. Maybe its just here but a knife is just a tool like anything else.

    Alex!
    My other Kahr is a Kimber.

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    Funny. Here, open carry of any knife is perfectly legal, but concealed carry of one larger than a normal pocket knife is a crime. Our concealed handgun permits do not have any effect on our ability to carry knives.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
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  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Alex,

    A cellphone, car keys and shoes are not active tools toward defense.
    Unlike that of a blade, gun or OC/CS.

    As to tactical superiority that was not the singular item of view that I'd touched on above, nor was it the the only item of discussion as among my conversation that I am relating here.
    With regard to paranoia exact same could be said for those who choose to carry a tool of any sort at all. It's not exactly a necessity in life to have an edged blade to cut open a box when a car or house key and even a coin in hand will do exact same nearly if not just as well. Besides aside from specific job/work conditions how often really does one find themself in a situation where they need to cut open boxes? Not all that often. For those who do a dime store razor knife will do that job just fine and can be kept on/in a desk or ones shirt pocket. No Leatherman tool carried on the belt required.
    Don't even get me applying that same logic as to firearms, carried covertly or openly.
    This is not and was not about paranoia.

    As others mention it is very common place these days (last 20+ yrs) to see all manner of folk waling around carrying knives clipped in pockets.
    Folk think/assume that it's a matter of safety (by view) in numbers. And it may be for them and among those like them self as from a general view.
    Which was the focus of my initiating conversation about this topic with my LEO associate as for his own view.

    But not everyone supports this view...Everywhere and/or as at all times under all conditions and environments.

    Tread lightly.

    - Janq
    Last edited by Janq; March 1st, 2010 at 10:35 PM.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Member Array CplVargas's Avatar
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    I know what y'all mean. Last week I noticed my Spanish Professor had a knife clip on his front strong side pocket.

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    Senior Member Array TheShadow's Avatar
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    I usually carry my Kershaw Cyclone 3-3/4" blade clipped on my support side front pocket. Today I had to cross the SC state line into NC ( live a rock throw from the state line). NC knife laws are not very well defined and I've read below a three inch blade was acceptable so I clipped on my Spyderco Delica with a 3" blade.

    It's stupid that I can carry a concealed pistol into North Carolina but NOT a knife with a 3-3/4 blade

  14. #14
    Member Array alexcantslee's Avatar
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    "Also they alert BGs that they have tools on board of value AND to what degree they are enhanced as toward defense AND the type and on-body location of their defense AND by that give the BG a lead/advantage as toward nullifying that defense knowing what side, arm, hand and exactly where on their persons body (pocket) to attack for maximal return in nullification of 'threat'.Also they alert BGs that they have tools on board of value AND to what degree they are enhanced as toward defense AND the type and on-body location of their defense AND by that give the BG a lead/advantage as toward nullifying that defense knowing what side, arm, hand and exactly where on their persons body (pocket) to attack for maximal return in nullification of 'threat'.

    I guess it was the portion I was more referring to. If the intent of hiding a knife is to not clue an attacker towards what you may have to defend yourself then it would only make sense to hide your cell phone as well. All weapons are tools, keys are tools, phones are tools, etc...The point seemed to be made that you should keep your defensive tools secret and "hide your hand" as it where. But shouldnt that same logic apply to all your tools that have the potential to be used against an attacker? By that logic if he saw your hand near a cell phone wouldnt that clue him in to nullify the same threat to him? I guess my comment about it being paranoid was more in the vein of needing to hide "tools" from a potential attacker to maintain an advantage. I understand the intent of what your saying, I just dont undestand why its weird to apply that logic to all "tools" like you mentioned.

    Like I said before, it may be a location thing but here in Texas knives really are just tools. They arent a status symbol or generally regarded as a weapon per say. People open boxes all the time, letters, packages, trim their fingernails, pry a CD out of the car stereo, etc..You name it. Its pretty safe to say its standard equipment, men carry them, women carry them. My father in law gives all the grandkids new knives each year for Christmas.

    I do hope I dont offend, as that is certainly not my intent.

    Alex
    My other Kahr is a Kimber.

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    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    Kershaw Chive clipped inside my right side pocket. Clip visible.

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