Dumb Dumb or dumber............

This is a discussion on Dumb Dumb or dumber............ within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; After finishing my copy of "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights".....J. Cirillo it brought me back to the old Elmer Keith mentality. When is an ammo manufacturer ...

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Thread: Dumb Dumb or dumber............

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    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Dumb Dumb or dumber............

    After finishing my copy of "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights".....J. Cirillo
    it brought me back to the old Elmer Keith mentality. When is an ammo manufacturer going to finally come out with the type of defense round that speaks for itself.

    Cirillo had to have a machinest make the dies for him so he could cast his own.....guess after all the experimentation, gunfights and autopsys, who better than the LEO with the highest number of kills in recorded police history would get it right.

    The WADCUTTER design.........with the proper powder charge and shoulder profile with a split face.....ie. the "Ole' Dumb Dumd" design.
    Jim says he didn't want a slug to mushroom, he wanted the bullet to expand....really expand to 1" if possible. The split wadcutter did just that, it spread like a butterfly's wings opening within the first 2" of initial impact.

    If the man with his experience and record would bet his life every time out on a stakeout with this round, why doesn't someone take note and produce it.
    Mr. Keith swore by the WADCUTTER design and I guess it still holds true today.
    So much hype in advertising with conical shapes, filler materials, controled expansion, lighter recoil, semi-jackets. Remove all the smoke and mirrors and give me what this man knew that worked when the SHTF........
    Profile: Hollow Base Wadcutter with a split face design.

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Interesting, if they ever come out, I'll give them a try.

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    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    I guess that my only thought is that if the Wadcutter was the way to go, why don't the law enforcement agencies use it? I recognize that Keith may have had a crazy record, but clearly the thousands of LEO on duty have more collective experience than he had as an individual. And just as clearly they want a round that will do what they need it to do, reliably. So if they shoot JHP, with all of the testing and time and real-world experience behind it, then that would seem to be the best round. JMO and of course YMMV.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
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    Senior Member Array boscobeans's Avatar
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    Remember, Cirillo retired over 30 years ago... SD ammunition has seen a lot of changes since then.

    bosco

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    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    True, but the human body hasn't changed much............the desired effects that were wanted, Mr. Cirillo had to design for himself out of true to life, documented gunfight casualties the type of round that would ultimately get the job done and done fast. Even, so much so that he scalloped the Wadcutter shoulder so it would dig in, instead of sliding around bone......the skull especially.

    Mr. Cirillo cites, LEO should be able to maintain 4" to 5" groups at +25 yards and civilians 10 yards and closer with a little wider spread, say out to 10" max. Never the less, bullet performance was critical in these life and death scenarios where seconds really counted and the difference being one return shot fired by the BG could ruin not only your day...........it seems the search for the ultimate defense round has gone on for some time and always seems to end back where it started with some modification ..............the WADCUTTER.

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    Keep in mine that to be practical, SD rounds must have properties of both expansion and penetration. It's a tradeoff that ammo makers constantly battle in the search for the perfect balance.

    Can you imagine trying to put a split wadcutter thru a car door or like barrier?
    While I agree that the wad cutter would be impressive on flesh and expend its full energy on impact.

    I've shot plenty of lead bullets, and while their performance is impressive on soft targets, they leave a lot to be desired in the penetration department.
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    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
    The WADCUTTER design.........with the proper powder charge and shoulder profile with a split face.....ie. the "Ole' Dumb Dumd" design.
    Jim says he didn't want a slug to mushroom, he wanted the bullet to expand....really expand to 1" if possible. The split wadcutter did just that, it spread like a butterfly's wings opening within the first 2" of initial impact.
    Sounds like he's about 20 years behind today's reality. Oh, yea, it was 20+ years ago when he wrote that. BTW, it didn't much work then unless it was dead soft lead and hit something solid. It wouldn't do it in normal flesh. Oh yea, mushrooming IS expansion.


    Mr. Keith swore by the WADCUTTER design and I guess it still holds true today.
    Not quite. He espoused the hard cast SEMI-wadcutter design with a sharp shoulder. It was not designed to expand, mushroom or do anything but punch a very round hole. Please remember he was a fan of BIG diameter bullets. Such ammo routinely shot all the way through a human body, just like is common with FMJ today. This is NOT the performance one wants from an SD bullet.

    So much hype in advertising with conical shapes, filler materials, controled expansion, lighter recoil, semi-jackets. Remove all the smoke and mirrors and give me what this man knew that worked when the SHTF........
    Profile: Hollow Base Wadcutter with a split face design.
    It is debatable that it was a "good" choice 25 years ago, but compared to modern SD ammo, it's the last choice today.

    BTW, the term is dum-dum and comes from the name of the arsenal in India where someone got the idea to grind a flat across the nose of .303 FMJ rifle bullets and cut a cross in the exposed lead. To my knowledge the practice was never applied to pistol bullets on a commercial basis.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

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    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    lesson....dont let old thoughts get in the way of new ideas...it might be a good read but its over and many improvements have been made since then...welcome back to the 21st century...

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    As has been stated, soft, pre-split lead will penetrate the proverbial squat when it comes to barriers...and depending on the loadings, I'd think heavy clothing would constitute a sufficient barrier to begin expanding something soft and "fragile" enough to expand that rapidly and to that extent.

    As has also been said, if the round expands that rapidly and to that extent, it may very well not penetrate deeply enough into the body to hit the important parts, even without any intermediate barriers. (See also all of the "safety" rounds and "specialty" ammo that is supposed to greatly expand - or explosively fragment - within the first few inches of penetration...these aren't very popular and don't meet most police criterion for the same reason.)

    Also, one must consider trying to feed said rounds in an autoloader - I just don't see a very soft lead wadcutter or semi-wadcutter functioning at all in the vast majority of semi-autos.

    To be blunt, it just isn't a good idea. If it were, someone would be doing it. You don't even see modern hunting ammo - which doesn't have to penetrate barriers - designed in this fashion.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Member Array Sgt Z Squad's Avatar
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    You have to look at all the potential ways and mediums the duty round is going to encounter in a shoot-out. How would wadcutters work against vehicle glass, sheet metal, cinder block, etc.?
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