Best ammunition grain for defense - Page 3

Best ammunition grain for defense

This is a discussion on Best ammunition grain for defense within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Kinda like asking Wheat,Rice,Or Bran...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Kinda like asking Wheat,Rice,Or Bran
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoms View Post
    But in a .45 it doesn't matter if it expands or not. You are not deciding you're life's not worth it. The .45 will get the job done even if you use ball, it has for over a hundred years.

    HPs in a .45 are only to help prevent pass through to something behind your target. Very rarely will you get a HP in .45 that doesn't expand at all and just about any expansion in a .45 will help to meet this criteria (not passing through and injuring another person).

    Actually, it matters a lot.

    A .45 hardball round will only make about a .32-.35" permanent wound channel--tissue tends to stretch around the roundnose bullet. Whereas a hollow point tends to tear through tissue at it's expanded diameter. Modern hollowpoints are designed to expand, and expand well, even after going through clothing...otherwise, all you've got is a ball round.

    Also, there's more than a few .45 JHP's that won't penetrate deep enough after expansion--we're talking the FBI protocol minimum 12".

    So--give me a round that consistantly expands, even after penetrating heavy clothing, and penetrates more than 12", 14" being optimum...and that pretty much rules out anything beyond the premium JHP's out there.

    You an carry what you want; however, it doesn't change the simple fact that not all .45 (or any caliber, for that matter) JHP rounds are created equal.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  3. #33
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    I just hate it when someone thinks more expensive is always better.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I just hate it when someone thinks more expensive is always better.
    Yeah, well, it always irks me a bit when people think that the cheapest is "just as good", when it is demonstrably not.

    However, I don't beleive that more expensive is always better...but I do believe when it comes to defensive ammo, to certain extent you get what you pay for.

    Show me a cheap JHP round that has been proven to consistantly have good expansion through clothing, consistantly proven to meet the FBI 12" minimum penetration, and is 100% reliable in my pistols in my hands, and I'll gladly switch.

    Because, I'll tell ya'--I've looked for 'em, but I haven't found 'em.

    BTW--the last SD ammo I picked up was Winchester RA45TP--one of the premium rounds. It was cheaper than the WWB "Personal Protection" JHP's at Wallyworld.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  5. #35
    Member Array Phantoms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    Actually, it matters a lot.

    A .45 hardball round will only make about a .32-.35" permanent wound channel--tissue tends to stretch around the roundnose bullet. Whereas a hollow point tends to tear through tissue at it's expanded diameter. Modern hollowpoints are designed to expand, and expand well, even after going through clothing...otherwise, all you've got is a ball round.

    Also, there's more than a few .45 JHP's that won't penetrate deep enough after expansion--we're talking the FBI protocol minimum 12".

    So--give me a round that consistantly expands, even after penetrating heavy clothing, and penetrates more than 12", 14" being optimum...and that pretty much rules out anything beyond the premium JHP's out there.

    You an carry what you want; however, it doesn't change the simple fact that not all .45 (or any caliber, for that matter) JHP rounds are created equal.
    Do you even listen to what you are saying? 12" minimum penetration is going through most people (overpenetrating) shot at COM. A .45 that doesn't penetrate enough (your statement) or pass through has dumped all of it's energy into that person. A ball round that only makes a .32-.35 hole has still dumped it's shockwave into the person hit with it. Any good reliable and accurate .45 round will get the job done. If you want to pay more for the hype and advertising, more power to you.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoms View Post
    Do you even listen to what you are saying? 12" minimum penetration is going through most people (overpenetrating) shot at COM. A .45 that doesn't penetrate enough (your statement) or pass through has dumped all of it's energy into that person. A ball round that only makes a .32-.35 hole has still dumped it's shockwave into the person hit with it. Any good reliable and accurate .45 round will get the job done. If you want to pay more for the hype and advertising, more power to you.
    Ah, now I understand--you're one of those naive folks that thinks that your potential adversary will present the same shot that a silhouette presents; square on, arms to the side.

    I harbor no such illusions--I'm aware that my round may have to go through an arm first (pretty common if they have a weapon out), or may be from a less than optimum angle (or both). Hence, 12" penetration.

    As for the "shockwave", well that also presents a pretty naive view of how pistol bullets work. Hate to break it to you, but most pistol rounds don't have enough velocity to cause enough damage through the fabled "hydrostatic shock", especially in the chest.

    Carry what you want; but facts are facts, and your opinion is not based on them.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  7. #37
    New Member Array c1ogden's Avatar
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    Guns are finicky. They have their own inexplicable ammo preferences. Two "identical" guns may not like the same brand or weight of ammo.

    Any modern brand name load will do fine. Here's how you choose:

    Try as many different loads as possible. That means the Federal 185 grain, 200 grain and 230 grain, the Speer 185 grain, 200 grain, and 230 grain, the Winchester 185 grain, 200 grain, and 230 grain, etc...

    Eliminate EVERY load that is less than 100% reliable in YOUR GUN.

    Evaluate the rest and carry the one that is most accurate in YOUR GUN.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    The simple facts are that anything you put in your firearm will be lethal if you place it where it needs to be placed.

    Practicing with various types is fun and makes for lots of gun forum discussions.

    There is no magic bullet. The best one is the one that does it's job because you did yours.
    NRA Life Member

  9. #39
    Member Array Phantoms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    Carry what you want; but facts are facts, and your opinion is not based on them.
    Do you have a link to the FBI penetration requirement and ammo used for those requirements? I see this statement used all over, but have yet to see an actual link to the actual FBI tests or even a link to the ammo requirements for the penetration requirements.

    Yes facts are facts. The fact is the .45ACP has been proven to do the job for 100years. Since you are hung up on penetration, look at a table of almost any brand/type of .45ACP and you will usually see penetration anywhere from a min of 11" to a max of 27".

    The .45ACP has a reputation as a man stopper for a reason. Will it knock a guy down if you shoot him in the arm? No. But it gets the job done in just about any commonly available ball or HP round.

  10. #40
    Member Array Phantoms's Avatar
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    BTW, the FBI requirements are not based on the same ideas as a SD. The FBI is inclined to find cover, stay and fight and many times fire through things. Individual SD should be to defend yourself until the threat is removed or you can evacuate to where you are no longer in danger.

  11. #41
    Member Array BAGMAN's Avatar
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    Reliability aside, is a 185 grain HP more effective than a 230 HP in a 3 1/2 inch 1911? I read somewhere that a lighter bullet should be used in a shorter barreled 1911. Didn't give a reason why though.
    "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli" Clemenza

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