.380 ACP from Buffalo Bore -- 1200 fps, 288 ft-lbs - Page 2

.380 ACP from Buffalo Bore -- 1200 fps, 288 ft-lbs

This is a discussion on .380 ACP from Buffalo Bore -- 1200 fps, 288 ft-lbs within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ccw9mm Neither here nor there, but a stack of three boxes of Buffalo Bore's .44mag 300gr rounds take up almost the same ...

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Thread: .380 ACP from Buffalo Bore -- 1200 fps, 288 ft-lbs

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Neither here nor there, but a stack of three boxes of Buffalo Bore's .44mag 300gr rounds take up almost the same amount of space as twenty-one boxes of Federal Hydra-Shok Tactical 9mm. Now that's a lotta powah!

    Of course, it's all in the generous use of Styrofoam, but it all adds to the mystique of the Power of these rounds.
    Poor fellow next to you at the range with the 9mm when you point out the difference in the size and powah of your rounds.

    I might consider BB out of my Bersa, but that is probably the smallest/lightest .380 that I would enjoy shooting it out of. I loaned some CorBon to a buddy to test out of his P3AT and he wasn't liking that too much, BB would probably be much less pleasurable.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    I'd like to see some independent lab's pressure measurements and some real-world, independent chronograph results.

    I'm not disputing anything the gentleman says about his ammo; just like an objective report from someone beside the maker, especially pressures.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    I'd like to see some independent lab's pressure measurements and some real-world, independent chronograph results.

    I'm not disputing anything the gentleman says about his ammo; just like an objective report from someone beside the maker, especially pressures.
    Well, chronographs and independent labs aside, I do know what I feel in my shoulder and how my aim is affected when comparing it to several other loads.

    Specifically, I've tried the following .44mag loads in a Marlin 1894P lever-action .44mag rifle of mine: DoubleTap Bonded Hunter JHP 240gr (1810 fps); Buffalo Bore 4C JFN 270gr (1802 fps); Remington L44MG7 UMC JSP 180gr (1610 fps); and a few other more standard rounds. The DoubleTap is stiff, but the the Buffalo Bore hits the shoulder noticeably harder, making follow-shots at 50yds tougher. Anecdotal, sure, but of this group of rounds it feels the stoutest of the bunch.

    Of course, each load is different. The .380 ACP won't have any relationship to this .44mag.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; March 30th, 2010 at 03:03 PM.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  4. #19
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    I think I might start carrying my .380 Makarov again
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  5. #20
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    im sure BB is fine ammo and i would purchase it.


    the claims are hard to believe so they need to be verified, no offence of course to BB.

    the hottest .380 i have run across is the LE GD. i dont have any #'s but it sure feels hot.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    There are some chrono reports on GunBlast. I'm definitely interested in trying some in my Kahr P380. I don't have a chronograph though. :)

    Ruger’s New LCP Lightweight .380 Pocket Pistol

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post
    There are some chrono reports on GunBlast. I'm definitely interested in trying some in my Kahr P380. I don't have a chronograph though. :)

    Ruger’s New LCP Lightweight .380 Pocket Pistol
    Interesting figures for a 2.75" barrel.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #23
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    ya, thats some hot stuff for sure.



    1077 is a good bit away from 1200.

    :)

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoprilshoot View Post
    ya, thats some hot stuff for sure.



    1077 is a good bit away from 1200.

    :)
    - The barrel length can make a big difference. The 1077 is actually close to BB's stated speeds.

    380 Auto +P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

    1. BDA-3.75 inch barrel----1218 fps
    2. Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel-----1200 fps
    3. Colt Mustang Pocket Lite-2.75 inch barrel---1123 fps
    4. Keltec---1100 fps

  10. #25
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    so your saying 1" of barrel will get you 140 FPS?

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoprilshoot View Post
    so your saying 1" of barrel will get you 140 FPS?
    Several mfrs of ammo say that.

    I don't, since I don't have chrony gear. Don't know either way. But they all generally state similar adjustments for varying bbl lengths.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  12. #27
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    I'd be happy to chrono the BB if someone would care to send some to me.

    Just to verify what others have for test results.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  13. #28
    Member Array Emrah's Avatar
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    If they're admitting that they've seen some "case bulges", to me that's enough reason to not risk in in my LCP. I could see doing it if maybe they were fully supported barrels but....

    Emrah

  14. #29
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    Cool The BB Recipe - At Last?

    OK, Ladies & Germs, Here's the skinny...

    After thorough research and evaluation using Quickload and a few other sources for verification, I believe I have struck gold on BB's formula. If this is not exact, it sure is close.

    WARNING: Use this load data AT YOUR OWN RISK! I make no statements indicating what you should do, other than follow the manufacturer's maximum recommended load data from your official load manuals.

    Now that the disclaimer is over, here we go...

    After testing over 1000 combinations of bullet and powder, I have come up with the following ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM load formulas for the 380 ACP that show a predicted range within standard variant parameters that are equivalent to the advertised BB velocities.

    1) BULLET SELECTION

    The only bullet I found that comes the closest to the claimed velocities in a 90gr HP is the Nosler 42050. Next best was the Hornady XTP 35500. The Nosler is a shorter bullet with a seating depth of only .10". This leaves more room for powder with the required load characteristics outlined below. It also provides more forward case room for gas expansion in weapons that have minimal rear case support such as the Kel-Tec P3AT.

    2) BRASS SELECTION

    According to BB, they use New, Unfired Starline Brass. If you choose to use anything else, compare your web and case thickness to a Starline before you start (and for each casing). The only casings I've found that compare come from overseas and are usually found as once shots. My recommendation is that you use the new Starline. You're only making a few of these for testing and carry, so why compromise on safety with the loads you are relying on to save your life? Be willing lose your wallet, rather than both your hand and your wallet.

    3) PRIMER SELECTION

    I recommend small pistol magnum primers for these loads. For those unfamiliar, the magnum primers are identical except they have a thicker primer cup. This prevents high pressure gasses in magnum loads from blowing through the weakened point where your firing pin dents the primer into the action of your weapon. I use Wolf & CCI. Winchesters tend to be a little on the sensitive side, and I never use Federal. Nothing personal, their PP ammo is great, but they tend to be a trickier fit unless you are using genuine federal brass. If you choose to use them, keep your face out of the way. A bursting primer while loading can ruin your mood (unless you love surprises) - and this is supposed to be fun!

    4) POWDER MEASUREMENT

    Do not use daddy's old shotgun powder dropper for these. For precision reloading, my original setup was an RCBS Uniflow drop measure with a old precision Redding Scale as a confirmation tool, followed by an RCBS trickler for exacting precision to the 1/2 of a tenth of a grain per load. I now use an RCBS Chargemaster Combo and only need to verify every 10th round or so. The weights never variate with the Chargemaster, but I check them anyway. Everything's computerized and precise. As you will notice with some of the data, being off by as much as even 1/100th of a grain can exceed maximums. Create each load BY HAND and WEIGH EVERY LOAD PRECISELY. As before, you're probably only making less than 100 of these. It's worth the extra time when you're walking the razor's edge.

    Enough foreplay, Here's the data:

    POWDER GRAINS CASE% FPS PSI
    Rottweil J706 6.07gr 122.4**1244 21434
    Rottweil P803 5.50gr 91 1215 21589*
    Rottweil P803 5.49gr 91 1213 21493
    Rottweil P803 5.40gr 89.5 1195 20646
    Rottweil P804 5.24gr 80.9 1203 21452
    VV N330 4.81gr 89 1175 21418
    VV N330 4.80gr 88.8 1173 21320

    * = Exceeds Maximum Chamber Pressure
    ** = Exceeds Maximum Case Capacity beyond the 110% Compression Threshold

    The two most likely load candidates being used by BB are:

    POWDER GRAINS CASE% FPS PSI FT/LBS BURN%
    Rottweil P803 5.40gr 89.5 1195 20646 285 95.9
    VV N330 4.80gr 88.8 1173 21320 275 96.1

    Being that Rottweil powder is rather difficult to find, and the Vihtavuori (Lapua) is easy to find, my bet is on Lapua. It's a bit expensive (so is the Rottweil), but EXTREMELY CONSISTENT when measuring for precision. It is also LOW-FLASH rated, as BB advertises their powders to be, making it the ideal candidate. Both powders burn approximately 96% of their total volume, making either capable of a lower flash, but the N330 is specifically designed to be low flash. If I could get the Rottweil, this is what I would use, as higher velocities are capable without getting too close to accidentally exceeding max chamber pressure.

    So, how does BB get 1218 from a Browning BDA? Easy. REAL WORLD, BABY! Quickload is an internal ballistics PREDICTION tool, not the WORD OF GOD. I load a lot of precision heavyweights for the 9mm (147gr Remington Match and 150gr Lapua), and see variances from gun to gun. For example, I loaded the same powder into same manufacturer, same weight brass, with the same primers, same bullets, and same exacting measurements. The Quickload prediction was 900fps. My Beretta 92SBF (yes, the original) chrony'd average at 850fps. My Beretta 951 clone (the revered Egyptian Helwan POS9), with a 1/4" shorter barrel, chrony'd the same load average at 950fps (100fps higher!). The reason for this is EVERY GUN IS DIFFERENT. The Helwan has a tighter barrel tolerance and a shorter distance between grooves. Both pistols also have a slightly different twist rate and land/groove pattern. In the N330 load above, we're only off from BB's "claimed" speed by 45fps, well within the range of speed variance between weapons. If Tim is claiming this velocity, my own data shows from experience that he is telling the truth. Chrony if you desire (I will anyway once they arrive), but his numbers do actually jive.

    Also, don't ask me "what model is a POS9". Ask any Gulf War/Iraqi Freedom/Just Cause vet. I'm sure they'll kindly explain it to you, and also tell you how many they picked up from the sand.

    For those of you who love the 90gr Hornady XTP's, I've included that data below FOR REFERENCE ONLY. As you can see, it's close to the Nosler, but not quite as fast due to seating depth. I would also be concerned about rear case pressure in pistols like the Kel-Tec, and there is less forward expansion area during the critical burn phase.

    POWDER GRAINS CASE% FPS PSI
    Rottweil J706 5.80gr 128.5**1232 21456
    Rottweil P803 5.22gr 94.8 1197 21432
    Rottweil P804 4.99gr 84.3 1190 21446
    VV N330 4.55gr 92.4 1155 21390
    Clermnt PCL506 4.56gr 85.3 1150 21484
    Alliant Unique 4.79gr 98.3 1149 21500
    Alliant PwrPstl 5.79gr 96.6 1139 21466
    ADI AP 70N 4.36gr 81.2 1137 21439
    Rottweil P801 4.20gr 79.3 1137 21444
    Clermnt PCL501 5.43gr 82.7 1136 21488
    VV 3N37 5.79gr 99.3 1135 21438
    Alliant Bulseye 4.10gr 82 1128 21303
    VV N320 3.88gr 87.4 1124 21499
    Somchm MP200 4.94gr 83 1124 21430
    Winchester WAP 5.19gr 78.9 1121 21491
    Ramshot Silhtte 5.17gr 77.7 1121 21429
    Somchm MS200 4.61gr 92.1 1117 21424
    Clermnt PCL509 4.31gr 87.4 1117 21471
    VV N340 4.72gr 94.3 1116 21418
    Clermnt PCL504 5.66gr 75 1110 21433
    Ramshot TruBlue 5.66gr 72.8 1110 21433
    Winchester 540 5.65gr 72.6 1110 21416
    Lovex S020 5.00gr 110.7**1110 21474

    ** = Exceeds Maximum Case Capacity beyond the 110% Compression Threshold

    I hope this helps confirm the BB load claims, as well as provide us with some solid data as to their probable concoction.

    Good luck and feel free to pass this data on.

    BTW - if you want the Perkins secret pancake recipe, just let me know.

    Tim (No, the other Tim)

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emrah View Post
    If they're admitting that they've seen some "case bulges", to me that's enough reason to not risk in in my LCP. I could see doing it if maybe they were fully supported barrels but....

    Emrah
    I think that very interesting, as well.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

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