I'm Royally POed at Hornady

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Thread: I'm Royally POed at Hornady

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    lol

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  3. #17
    Member Array HuttoAg96's Avatar
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    They may be "subpar" from the FBI standard, but there are lots of rounds out there that, for instance, go 11 or 11.5" with a big mushroom and do tons of damage but would "fail" the FBI standard. Even Ayoob says that test isn't the end-all, be-all.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    It's all a trade-off. The CD 9mm is not +P, so you get faster follow-up shots...but penetration through barriers is a bit less.

    The CD round was designed to expand reliably through clothing...but that costs some barrier penetration ability.

    I like the round...the pointy profile should also help feeding.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  5. #19
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    One of the gun mags had a comparison article with Hornady CD versus Win. PDX1 (?). It stated that each was designed for a specific purpose as far as penetration was concerned.
    In a nutshell it said, if you want this, get that. If you want that, get this.
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  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Why in the world you you take legal advice from an ammunition manufacturing company?
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array ASSA9's Avatar
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    I'm sorry for the rant guys.
    Its just that over the years this has been a point of some concern in both Law enforcement and citizens alike, to the point were if today you get any training on this subject no professional trainer will recommend you carry that type round.

    If you choices to carry it and know what your going when it comes to ammo
    then more power to you , I have no problem with anyone making an informed decision.
    But a lot of people watching are not informed and the show said it was a show
    about picking the right defensive ammo .
    Had they tested it beside their older ammo the XTP (Extreme Terminal Performance) bullet and said "look these are your choices" I would
    not have gotten so bent out of shape.

    Again sorry about the rant
    Zoe: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

    Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Hornady is in business to make a profit by selling ammunition. Every word uttered from their collective mouths is aimed to accomplish that. They don't truly give a hoot about you. They want you to buy their ammunition, bullets, brass, and reloading supplies and keep doing it. Every single thing they do and say is geared to make you a customer for life so the company can make money.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    All this talk about what ammo to buy and so forth is like asking a college guy if he wants to buy a drink for the sorority girl who is dancing on the table without her top, or the girl with the varsity sweater with the track & field team emblem shooting billiards doing body shots off her team mates ample chest.

    The answer is simple - he buys the drink for the one that meets his standards for attractiveness that is most likely to sleep with him at the earliest time possible.

    Does a given ammo comply with FBI or IWBA spec?

    If yes, buy.

    If not, does it rank high in Evan Marshal's study?

    If yes, and you believe in his statistical models...OK, buy.

    If it does not satisfy any of the above studies - Don't Buy.

    See? Simple. Buy the ammo that complies with the set of industry standards you chose to believe in.

    Hornady Critical Defense complies with NONE of those standards to the best of my info.

    Buying this ammo is the equivalent of the aforementioned college guy bypassing the available women listed above and attempting to find a one night stand with a sober woman.

    Inadvisable.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array ASSA9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    All this talk about what ammo to buy and so forth is like asking a college guy if he wants to buy a drink for the sorority girl who is dancing on the table without her top, or the girl with the varsity sweater with the track & field team emblem shooting billiards doing body shots off her team mates ample chest.

    The answer is simple - he buys the drink for the one that meets his standards for attractiveness that is most likely to sleep with him at the earliest time possible.

    Does a given ammo comply with FBI or IWBA spec?

    If yes, buy.

    If not, does it rank high in Evan Marshal's study?

    If yes, and you believe in his statistical models...OK, buy.

    If it does not satisfy any of the above studies - Don't Buy.

    See? Simple. Buy the ammo that complies with the set of industry standards you chose to believe in.

    Hornady Critical Defense complies with NONE of those standards to the best of my info.

    Buying this ammo is the equivalent of the aforementioned college guy bypassing the available women listed above and attempting to find a one night stand with a sober woman.

    Inadvisable.
    Zoe: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

    Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

  11. #25
    Member Array rcain007's Avatar
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    I would be more concerned with over penetration than trying to shoot through a barrier.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array ASSA9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcain007 View Post
    I would be more concerned with over penetration than trying to shoot through a barrier.
    That is until you are chased be a someone driving a deadly weapon(car), then the ability to shoot through a barrier makes sense.
    Understand?
    Zoe: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

    Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASSA9 View Post
    That is until you are chased be a someone driving a deadly weapon(car), then the ability to shoot through a barrier makes sense.
    Understand?
    I am not exactly sure. If the prudent person had time to draw, aim and fire, it is probably faster and safer to just get out of the way. I am not sure what kind of combat you are planning for, but the reality is you are not going to encounter what you fear the most. A private citizen has no duty to stand and fight, and it is always best to remove oneself from the danger if possible. I am sorry, but I feel like you are making way to much of this. If maximum penetration is what you are after, than simply choose those offerings. I think Hornady was just trying to be realistic in catering to the needs of the civilian CC carry movement, who will likely use their weapons in areas of high people traffic like malls, subways, busy streets and parking lots, restraunts, amusement parks, ect...

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    According to these tests, CD does pretty well...

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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I am not exactly sure. If the prudent person had time to draw, aim and fire, it is probably faster and safer to just get out of the way. I am not sure what kind of combat you are planning for, but the reality is you are not going to encounter what you fear the most. A private citizen has no duty to stand and fight, and it is always best to remove oneself from the danger if possible. I am sorry, but I feel like you are making way to much of this. If maximum penetration is what you are after, than simply choose those offerings. I think Hornady was just trying to be realistic in catering to the needs of the civilian CC carry movement, who will likely use their weapons in areas of high people traffic like malls, subways, busy streets and parking lots, restraunts, amusement parks, ect...
    I disagree.

    I guess I don't optimistically assume that if I'm in what will most likely be the worse-case scenario of my life (using a firearm to defend myself), that it won't so bad that I won't need to punch through some type of intermediate barrier.

    But then again, I'm not an optimist.

    However--even if I was, I wouldn't likely choose a SD round that, when it doesn't properly feed in my weapon, a Hornady rep would advise to "just trim the plastic off a bit".

    Oh yes they did (bottom of page 2).
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The premise by the OP was that the Hornady CD load did not meet LE nor, FBI requirements. For those of you who are new to the ballgame, lets look at the FBI. After the Miami shootout in the early 80s, the FBI went looking for the best caliber/round for their agents due to what was percieved to be at the time a lack of stopping power. The final winner was the 10mm loaded with a 180 grn bullet produced by NORMA. The weapon was supposed to be the BREN TEN made on a CZ frame. Because of problems with the round being to powerful for some to handle, and production problems with the Bren ten, 1911s were used as a subsitute. The 1911 frame was taking a beating, so the ammo company and S&W came up with a 10mm short, aka 40S&W. Sooooo, the FBI, changed their original mandate of performance to accept the 40s performance as acceptable. Many rounds today carried by LEOs AND the FBI do not meet the original study and test criteria the FBI first set forth. The Hornady CD load is modeled after their great Lever gun load that has exceeded common loads for leverguns and increased their performance to new levels unheard of a few years ago. With the polymer tip, the CD load is not subceptable to clogging up like conventional hollowpoints, and is more reliable to expand due to its design. The claim that it will not shoot thru glass and doors, is I believe, exaggerated. I think there is alot to like about this new offering. It is almost guarrenteed to dump all of its energy into the body. Does'nt feed in your gun? Do what you would do with any load that is not feed reliable in your particular gun, TRY SOMETHING ELSE. I personally believe this load has alot of good things going for it, and its benifits outweigh any perceived imaginary thought provoking scenarios that we like to come up with in our doomsday plans. If you look up the Miami shootout and study the after action report, you will see that it wasn't the bullets or calibers that failed, the agents were not prepared, and couldn't hit their targets. And they were using 357mags, 38s and 9mms. Of course they were outgunned, to be fair. But that was the mother of this whole caliber/bullet war, of what is good or bad.

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