I'm Royally POed at Hornady

This is a discussion on I'm Royally POed at Hornady within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hornady makes outstanding ammo. They even give away free DVDs which showcase their latest products. The dirty bastages!...

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Thread: I'm Royally POed at Hornady

  1. #31
    Member Array alfack's Avatar
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    Hornady makes outstanding ammo. They even give away free DVDs which showcase their latest products. The dirty bastages!

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    I don't think it's an over-reaction. I'm not liking that at all.

    I remember the woman where the guy broke into her house, she locked herself in her bedroom, and as he started crashing literally thru the door and she shot at him to stop him... it didn't.... and once he was inside the room itself she shot him and he died.

    Ok, now want to tell her... well , we made your ammo so it would not penetrate the door ? Better not tell me that.....
    I have bedroom doors that I can lock myself quickly into the room, and shoot anyone trying to come thru that door.... if needed. Now, I think I'll grab my AR and use that instead of my handgun....

    I have some +P+ that I have thought about carrying in one of my extra mags, just for penetration purposes.

    Not needed for the NORMAL citizen.... what makes you think none of those things will ever happen to you ? Or, that you will need to have at least the minimal penetration ..... heavy coat during winter, etc.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array usmc3169's Avatar
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    I really wouldnt worry about over penetration with a hand gun, If you hit something susbstantial in the body then the over penetration wont have a lot of energy left and wont do to much damage. If you dont hit something substatial, then it wont matter what kind of round you are shooting, it will punch a nice hole in whatever it hits next. Generally speaking you dont have to worry about any hollow point by a reputable manufacturer over penetrating out of a hand gun. I would worry more about enough penetration.

    Hornady will not be coming into my house unless it is free.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  5. #34
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    According to these tests, CD does pretty well...

    GoldenLoki.com
    Ummm, not really. It's outperformed by the obsolete Corbon 125gr load, and none of the current leaders are tested. I'm willing to bet the only reason it penetrated that far is because the low velocity from the 3" barrel of the test gun contributed to the abysmal expansion which increased penetration. test it with a 4-5" barrel and you'll probably see expansion go up and penetration go down.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    It's all a trade-off. The CD 9mm is not +P, so you get faster follow-up shots...but penetration through barriers is a bit less.

    The CD round was designed to expand reliably through clothing...but that costs some barrier penetration ability.

    I like the round...the pointy profile should also help feeding.
    I agree. I was aware of the pros and cons when I made my decision to carry it in small 9mms and I still hold to my decision for the same reasons. A vast majority of our local LEOs are carrying it in their personal weapons. I still like it for my needs. At least they are upfront with the "not meeting the FBI ....." thing.

    I can understand why others would pass on it...Speer Gold Dot is hard to beat too. I carry the gold dot in my .357 magnum. Not worried about penetration or feeding in a .357 magnum
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  7. #36
    Senior Member Array xsigma40cal's Avatar
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    Last I heard, FBI uses winchester XDP-JHP or something like that. Plus I think Hornady made bad marketing choice as a good number of CC and home defense enthusiast's often follow FBI and military equipment choices. Just by something else then.

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The premise by the OP was that the Hornady CD load did not meet LE nor, FBI requirements. For those of you who are new to the ballgame, lets look at the FBI. After the Miami shootout in the early 80s, the FBI went looking for the best caliber/round for their agents due to what was percieved to be at the time a lack of stopping power. The final winner was the 10mm loaded with a 180 grn bullet produced by NORMA. The weapon was supposed to be the BREN TEN made on a CZ frame. Because of problems with the round being to powerful for some to handle, and production problems with the Bren ten, 1911s were used as a subsitute. The 1911 frame was taking a beating, so the ammo company and S&W came up with a 10mm short, aka 40S&W. Sooooo, the FBI, changed their original mandate of performance to accept the 40s performance as acceptable. Many rounds today carried by LEOs AND the FBI do not meet the original study and test criteria the FBI first set forth. The Hornady CD load is modeled after their great Lever gun load that has exceeded common loads for leverguns and increased their performance to new levels unheard of a few years ago. With the polymer tip, the CD load is not subceptable to clogging up like conventional hollowpoints, and is more reliable to expand due to its design. The claim that it will not shoot thru glass and doors, is I believe, exaggerated. I think there is alot to like about this new offering. It is almost guarrenteed to dump all of its energy into the body. Does'nt feed in your gun? Do what you would do with any load that is not feed reliable in your particular gun, TRY SOMETHING ELSE. I personally believe this load has alot of good things going for it, and its benifits outweigh any perceived imaginary thought provoking scenarios that we like to come up with in our doomsday plans. If you look up the Miami shootout and study the after action report, you will see that it wasn't the bullets or calibers that failed, the agents were not prepared, and couldn't hit their targets. And they were using 357mags, 38s and 9mms. Of course they were outgunned, to be fair. But that was the mother of this whole caliber/bullet war, of what is good or bad.
    Actually, the FBI adopted S&W 1076 (1066?)...I was unaware that they ever widley used 10mm 1911's.

    And if you read the actual information on the shootout, you'd find that one of the agents perfectly placed a round that went through Platt's arm, and into the chest...and stopped less than an inch short of the heart (9mm 115gr Silvertip, it was). I suspect that a HCD 115gr would perform just as well, given the same circumstances.

    Matix, BTW, took a headshot from a .38 158gr+P that took him out of most of the fight...can't quite see how that would be considered poor marksmanship either.

    Just a few facts for ya'.
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Yep, just get something else.

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Yes I read the report years ago. Maybe I have forgotten a few things, but I still stand by my position the the average person carrying for personal protection will be well served by the CD. Just because group A uses product C for their use does not mean it's the best choice for everyone. Bullet performance is not more important than tactics and common sense. As amatter of fact, many bullets will not penetrate car window glass due to the angle. But the bottom line is, if you feel unsafe with it, than get something else . There are many magic bullets availible to you.

  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Well darn... I thought I could shoot through a 2" steel plate at 100 yards with 9mm Hornaday CD ammo...


    Honestly personal protection ammo should be chosen very carefully. You want something reliable and powerful but not something that is going to overpenetrate. For instance... using a 240g factory loaded Hornaday XTP out of a 3" barrel .44mag the bullet expanded but passed through a 12" hard maple log! I have no doubts that if I was in a situation and my shot did not hit bone it woild pass directly through a BG... that is not something you want to happen.

    I was one one that believed more energy...more power...bigger caliber... until I actually did research and non scientific tests of my own. I have no problem trusting Hornaday CD .357 mag in my snub.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    One of the gun mags had a comparison article with Hornady CD versus Win. PDX1 (?). It stated that each was designed for a specific purpose as far as penetration was concerned.
    In a nutshell it said, if you want this, get that. If you want that, get this.
    Was the NRA AR a couple months ago. Good read.

    http://www.americanrifleman.org/Arti...id=1776&cid=32

    One Problem, Two Solutions
    Hornady and Winchester have two different ideas behind defensive ammunition.

    It is intended for across-the-room distances and last-ditch self-defense. Our reasoning was that if you were shooting through a barrier – car door, sheet metal, glass, et cetera – you're probably going to have legal ramifications."

    "It is capable of penetrating a wide range of barriers and still providing the knockdown needed to stop a threat. If you think about a threat situation the bad guy will probably be looking for something to hide behind, not standing in the open letting you shoot at him or her. This is designed for many of those situations."

    The former, from Hornady Mfg. Co. Chief Ballistics Scientist Dave Emary, and the latter, from Winchester Ammunition Centerfire Product Manager Glen Weeks, represent two starkly different approaches to a common goal-stopping a deadly threat from an assailant. The products, Hornady Critical Defense and Winchester Bonded PDX1, represent the most up-to-date personal-protection ammunition available, and are a "reinventing of the wheel," so to speak, to create superior products within each company's lines. In fact, the loads are likely to displace well-regarded offerings within the companies, as well as shake up the industry....

    Full article in PDF
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  13. #42
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASSA9 View Post
    But a lot of people watching are not informed and the show said it was a show about picking the right defensive ammo .

    Had they tested it beside their older ammo the XTP (Extreme Terminal Performance) bullet and said "look these are your choices" I would not have gotten so bent out of shape.
    No need to apologize for what is a legitimate beef with presentation of information.

    Hornady is presuming to tell citizens what they will and won't find has utility. That chaps me, as well.

    I fully realize that the average criminal encounter of an FBI or LEO unit will differ from the the average civilian encounter, and that they'll each be more likely to come up against deep-penetration situations. But that hardly means that citizens won't need such performance at all. And it doesn't suggest that FBI/LEO officers will be magically escaping the risks that come with enhanced penetration cartridges simply because they are FBI/LEO.

    Like you, I'd much rather not be patronized and coddled. Instead, I would much rather be presented with clear and simple data. Let me decide for myself what my needs require.
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  14. #43
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Was the NRA AR a couple months ago. Good read.

    One Problem, Two Solutions

    One Problem, Two Solutions
    Hornady and Winchester have two different ideas behind defensive ammunition.

    It is intended for across-the-room distances and last-ditch self-defense. Our reasoning was that if you were shooting through a barrier car door, sheet metal, glass, et cetera you're probably going to have legal ramifications."

    "It is capable of penetrating a wide range of barriers and still providing the knockdown needed to stop a threat. If you think about a threat situation the bad guy will probably be looking for something to hide behind, not standing in the open letting you shoot at him or her. This is designed for many of those situations."

    The former, from Hornady Mfg. Co. Chief Ballistics Scientist Dave Emary, and the latter, from Winchester Ammunition Centerfire Product Manager Glen Weeks, represent two starkly different approaches to a common goal-stopping a deadly threat from an assailant. The products, Hornady Critical Defense and Winchester Bonded PDX1, represent the most up-to-date personal-protection ammunition available, and are a "reinventing of the wheel," so to speak, to create superior products within each company's lines. In fact, the loads are likely to displace well-regarded offerings within the companies, as well as shake up the industry....

    Full article in PDF
    Good article; don't know how I missed that one...

    Personally, I fall into the philosophical camp of the Winchester rep; I want a round that, if I am forced to try and punch through cover, will have better penetration...and the Winchester round has the advantage.

    Also, I strongly disagree with the Hornady rep's statement that :

    ...if you were shooting through a barrier car door, sheet metal, glass, et cetera you're probably going to have legal ramifications.
    If you've got a legitimate shoot, that you've met all of the standards for use of lethal force...shooting through a barrier should be a non-issue. In fact, I'd like to see a case where this issue came up...
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  15. #44
    Member Array ZRow1's Avatar
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    I'm perfectly happy with the performance of Hornady Critical Defense in all three of my primary carry guns. And...what you see as negative I see as a positive. They are telling the truth about the ammo's performance and what you can expect from it, without exaggerating performance, so you can make an informed decision. You say no and I say yes....what a country!
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  16. #45
    Member Array gen3monte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I think you are seriously over reacting here. Most private citizens will never be in asituation that requires barrier penetration. It is not that the new stuff will not penetrate, but will not perform thru hard barriers like others are designed to do. In most SD situations you do not want overpenetration.
    +1 I just watched the same thing and it never says it wont penetrate glass or car doors, it says not up to the FBI standard for law enforcement. Hornandy also makes ammunition that does perform up to FBI standards and it marketed for law enforcement use, it is called TAP. The critical defense ammo is made for civilian self defence.
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