I'm Royally POed at Hornady

This is a discussion on I'm Royally POed at Hornady within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by glockman10mm The premise by the OP was that the Hornady CD load did not meet LE nor, FBI requirements. For those of ...

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Thread: I'm Royally POed at Hornady

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The premise by the OP was that the Hornady CD load did not meet LE nor, FBI requirements. For those of you who are new to the ballgame, lets look at the FBI. After the Miami shootout in the early 80s, the FBI went looking for the best caliber/round for their agents due to what was percieved to be at the time a lack of stopping power. The final winner was the 10mm loaded with a 180 grn bullet produced by NORMA. The weapon was supposed to be the BREN TEN made on a CZ frame. Because of problems with the round being to powerful for some to handle, and production problems with the Bren ten, 1911s were used as a subsitute. The 1911 frame was taking a beating, so the ammo company and S&W came up with a 10mm short, aka 40S&W. Sooooo, the FBI, changed their original mandate of performance to accept the 40s performance as acceptable.
    You completely butchered the 10mm's history. Your post above is so full of misinformation I don't know where to begin.

    In short:

    The FBI NEVER tested full power 10mm.

    The FBI NEVER issued the 1911 pistol in the 10mm.

    The FBI load for the 10mm is the one that marginally beat the .45 ACP in the tests. It is the same exact ballistics of the later .40 S&W cartridge.

    FBI 10mm = .40 S&W. Period.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I was not trying to give a full history. I did not say they issued the 1911 to the FBI. But they did test full power loads as it was originally designed and loaded by Norma, and if you believe it was marginally more powerful than the 40, you are lost in the sauce. I have a Shooting Times from 1982 with the complete FBI test and results article. Additionally, look no further than Wilkepedia for a history of the 10mm and it will say everything I said in my earlier statement. It clearly states that full power 10mm loads work at 37500 psi compared to operating pressures of 35000 for the 40. Furthermore, they did test the 1911 frame along with the Thompson submachine gun, and like I said earlier, the frames of the 1911 took a beating. I have loaded and used the 10mm since 1985 sir. I know it well. So I invite anyone to check it out for themselves, and see who is full of misinformation. I would like to add one more thing, It is true that the 10mm marginally beat the 45 in the tests, but that is NOT the originally designed 10mm, but the watered down 10mm lite load which would inspire the 40 short and weak later on, which even its its anemic state beat the 45 and others. But, getting back to my original point, the FBI has changed its criteria again. To further support my opinion of my previous posts, the FBI has determined that roughly HALF of their shooting incidents are into or involve vehicles, most bullets of all popular manafactures fail the frontal windshield penetration tests largely due to angle deflection. If this is something you really worry about, then you need a heavy, hotloaded cartridge.
    Last edited by glockman10mm; May 1st, 2010 at 12:29 AM.

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I was not trying to give a full history. I did not say they issued the 1911 to the FBI. But they did test full power loads as it was originally designed and loaded by Norma,
    False. The FBI did not test full power Norma ammunition for determination of suitability of their issued weapon. They could not obtain the Norma factory ammunition in time for the testing, so one of the agents handloaded the 10mm ammunition for the testing. One of the criteria for the test was the ammunition and handgun comibination could not recoil more than the standard GI ball load of the .45 ACP 230gr FMJ in a 1911A1. The tested load of the 10mm 180gr JHP at 980fps in the S&W 1076 met that requirement. Furthermore, S&W did test a S&W 1076 with 18,000 rounds of Norma 170gr ammunition without failure or breakages of any kind. It was considered pointless to continue the test, so it was dropped as the test exceeded the estimated service life of the FBI pistol from past history.


    and if you believe it was marginally more powerful than the 40, you are lost in the sauce.
    The load that the FBI tested in their protocol for the new service weapon was a 10mm 180gr Sierra JHP at 980fps. Take a look at the original load for the .40 S&W when it was introduced. OMG, a 180gr JHP at 980fps. Wow. How did that happen?

    I have a Shooting Times from 1982 with the complete FBI test and results article. Additionally, look no further than Wilkepedia for a history of the 10mm and it will say everything I said in my earlier statement.
    Sorry, but Wikipedia's article is full of holes and misinformation. I personally spoke on the phone with the FBI agent who worked in the FTU and personally handloaded the ammunition for the FBI test during that time.

    It clearly states that full power 10mm loads work at 37500 psi compared to operating pressures of 35000 for the 40.
    This is common knowledge which I was not debating.

    I have loaded and used the 10mm since 1985 sir. I know it well. So I invite anyone to check it out for themselves, and see who is full of misinformation.
    My uncle has also been handloading and shooting the 10mm since 1983.

    I would like to add one more thing, It is true that the 10mm marginally beat the 45 in the tests, but that is NOT the originally designed 10mm, but the watered down 10mm lite load which would inspire the 40 short and weak later on, which even its its anemic state beat the 45 and others.
    Correct, the round that marginally beat the .45 ACP was the 10mm 180gr JHP at 980fps, not the Norma 170gr JHP at 1300fps or the 200gr JHP at 1200fps.

    But, getting back to my original point, the FBI has changed its criteria again. To further support my opinion of my previous posts, the FBI has determined that roughly HALF of their shooting incidents are into or involve vehicles, most bullets of all popular manafactures fail the frontal windshield penetration tests largely due to angle deflection. If this is something you really worry about, then you need a heavy, hotloaded cartridge.
    Pressure has nothing to do with it. A .45 Colt standard load will bust through glass better than any service cartridge.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The 1076 replaced the model 13, and was considered a great auto. I do not have the benefit of speaking with people personally involved in the testing process, only what has been published to the public over the years. So due to this, I will concede the discussion. The FBI did step back in time and reinvent the 38-40, so there was really nothing ballistically new about the 40S&W. As a last note, I was not implying that pressure was necassary for penetration, but if you do not have mass, you have to get the energy from somewhere, as energy is the projectiles ability to work. But anyway, the point that I was originally trying to make about the OPs post was that law enforcement requirements change, and ammo that meets their criteria are not always availible to th general public.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The FBI did step back in time and reinvent the 38-40, so there was really nothing ballistically new about the 40S&W.
    I agree. The .40 S&W is basically a rimless .38-40, which was a very popular cartridge and still an excellent one that deserves more respect that it is given today.

    But anyway, the point that I was originally trying to make about the OPs post was that law enforcement requirements change, and ammo that meets their criteria are not always availible to th general public.
    This I agree with you 100%.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASSA9 View Post
    Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. (Rant Off)
    Easy solution don't buy their product. If you want accurate reliable consistent expansion no matter what you shoot it into or through the best bullet available is Federal HST

    Here are some test results. This first set are downloadable PDF files. These test were conducted by LEO at the indicated LEO facilities. The participating ammo manufactures supplied the ammo and sponsored the tests. These files/ reports are provided by Federal from their website. Because they were done at LEO facilities by LEO with competing manufactures present I think that these test results are as unbiased accurate and objective as possible. As it turned out these results are pretty much the same as the low tech water jug and wet newspaper tests I did on my own.

    Los Angeles County - California
    Riverside - California
    Santa Clara - California
    Fresno County - California
    Kern County - California
    Sacramento County - California
    San Angelo - Texas
    Pierce County Workshop - Washington
    San Diego County Workshop - California
    Portland Police Bureau - Oregon

    The following are links to pages with comparison pics of different ammo, from a two different sites
    ballistics testing - round 1 - varied 9mm JHP's
    ballistics testing - round 2 - varied 9mm JHP's
    ballistics testing - round 3 - varied 9mm JHP's - shooting through tshirts
    ballistics testing - round 5 - comparing 9mm JHP velocities
    ballistics testing - round 6 - Federal HST 9mm vs 45 acp
    ballistics testing - round 7 - shooting through denim - 9 mm, 45 acp, and 357 magnum

    Terminal Ballistics .45 ACP
    Terminal Ballistics 9mm

    There is also a rather informative thread here with pics at Federal HST vs, Hydra-Shock pics . Last do a search here on DC of Federal HST there are several threads, all of them say great things about HST

    As far as Horday promoting sub par ammo. They have located a target niche as can be seen here on this thread that wants that sub par ammo. That is their choice and Hordany is willing to supply it to them. For me I do not for one instant think LEO needs more effective ammo than I do for SD.

    As far as believing what you see on TV I dunno what to say we told our kids when they were little if it is on TV it is make believe. It is a belief I adhere to as an adult. I don't believe the news most of the time why would I believe an infomercial?
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I will check those out. I am always willing to learn new things, even though my mission in life is to promote the virtues of the 10mm as the ultimate answer to everything an autoloading handgun would be called upon to do,lol

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Pretty much is. I handload the 10mm to duplicate everything from the 9mm Luger to the full power 10mm "Norma" loads and everything in between. I run bullets from 100gr up to 245gr in my 10mm. I don't know of an auto pistol as versatile as the 10mm.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Pretty much is. I handload the 10mm to duplicate everything from the 9mm Luger to the full power 10mm "Norma" loads and everything in between. I run bullets from 100gr up to 245gr in my 10mm. I don't know of an auto pistol as versatile as the 10mm.
    Now here is a man of great wisdom! Now if everyone else would see the light, it would end all debate of caliber effectiveness for SD. Nothing else comes close.

  11. #55
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    May I Point Out?

    1. This would not be the first time a manufacturer came out with a product that performs less than another, and therefore advertises it as a good thing. I remember someone used to make a really underpowered automobile; it was advertised as 'economical' and 'safe'. (Maybe today it would be 'eco friendly'?)

    2. Hornady has a good track record in general. I wouldn't let one statement by one 'hawker' put me off the products I know perform.
    Anyone Worth Shooting Is Worth Shooting Well
    Please take a look at my Blog: http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie View Post
    1. This would not be the first time a manufacturer came out with a product that performs less than another, and therefore advertises it as a good thing.
    You mean like a Slinky, Pet Rock, the president?
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  13. #57
    Member Array REDTAIL's Avatar
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    This Ammo is an advitersing gimic stick what works like Gold dot's Fed HST etc & keep away from this so called civilian BS ammo.

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Shot the 9mm version thru an old interior door from 10 ft using the CD. Penetrated completely. FYI

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Shot the 9mm version thru an old interior door from 10 ft using the CD. Penetrated completely. FYI
    It's not so much that it won't penetrate--it's how effective the round will be after penetration.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  16. #60
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    I wouldn't have wanted to be on the other side.

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