I'm Royally POed at Hornady - Page 5

I'm Royally POed at Hornady

This is a discussion on I'm Royally POed at Hornady within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I wouldn't listen to this commercial stuff. I mean really, look at the materials most doors, walls and what everything is made out, your not ...

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Thread: I'm Royally POed at Hornady

  1. #61
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    I wouldn't listen to this commercial stuff. I mean really, look at the materials most doors, walls and what everything is made out, your not going to need much to go through doors, walls and such, their paper thin now a days.

    Most people won't be shooting through engine blocks at someone or brick walls.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"


  2. #62
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian View Post
    I wouldn't listen to this commercial stuff. I mean really, look at the materials most doors, walls and what everything is made out, your not going to need much to go through doors, walls and such, their paper thin now a days.

    Most people won't be shooting through engine blocks at someone or brick walls.

    I don't think the issue is barrier performance, it's that in straight gel with no barriers it won't meet the 12" minimum penetration established by the FBI standards and backed up by real world results.

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    I don't think the issue is barrier performance, it's that in straight gel with no barriers it won't meet the 12" minimum penetration established by the FBI standards and backed up by real world results.

    And that's really it.

    I think a lot of people look at it and say "Nobody's 12" thick (get your mind out of the gutter, folks)...why do I need a round that will penetrate over that? Why, that's just plain dangerous!".

    The problem with this mindset is that skin is usually considered the equivalent of 4" of gel penetration. So, even in an optimum frontal shot, you're only looking at 8" of penetration...and another 4" equivalent to punch through the back.

    This is why it's uncommon for a properly functioning JHP to exit the body; usually, they end up just under the skin on the back.

    Now--let's take a less than optimum shot--one where our assailant has an arm up in front of their chest (which is not too terribly uncommon if they have a weapon...and if they don't have a weapon, we probably shouldn't be shooting them). Odds are, you're going to have to punch through that arm; that's 3 layers of skin, plus any arm mass...so if your round won't penetrate 12", there's a pretty good chance that if it enters the chest, it's not going to penetrate deep enough to hit the important stuff inside.

    Which is why there's that 12" minimum guideline for LEO ammo.

    This is why I just can't see Hornady's new round being a good choice for self defense. They've got a slick marketing campaign, I'll give them that...but that doesn't mean it's good ammo.

    For what it's worth.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  4. #64
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I understand the logic here on the mistrust of the ammo, but one thing to think about is that good conventional hollow point performance is not that common in the real world as everybody refers to it. Sure, you can get good consistent results in geletan testing, but clothing and other factors can quickly screw this up. I have seen real worldresults personally and have examined bullets taken from human bodys. So excuse me if I disgress with peoples theorys on bullet performance based on what people think are going to happen. The Hornady CD, due to its polymer tip design, is all but guarenteed to perform as advertised do to possessing none of the weaknesses of conventional HPs. Another thing is that I have 2 boxes of ammo made by reputable companies, that you can buy in almost any well stocked store. The only difference is in fine print on the end of the box, it says LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY. I recieved them from my agency last year to practice with due to a change in ammo companies. I would not bet the farm that what you buy in the store meets LE standards unless it says LE ONLY.

  5. #65
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I understand the logic here on the mistrust of the ammo, but one thing to think about is that good conventional hollow point performance is not that common in the real world as everybody refers to it. Sure, you can get good consistent results in geletan testing, but clothing and other factors can quickly screw this up. I have seen real worldresults personally and have examined bullets taken from human bodys. So excuse me if I disgress with peoples theorys on bullet performance based on what people think are going to happen. The Hornady CD, due to its polymer tip design, is all but guarenteed to perform as advertised do to possessing none of the weaknesses of conventional HPs. Another thing is that I have 2 boxes of ammo made by reputable companies, that you can buy in almost any well stocked store. The only difference is in fine print on the end of the box, it says LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY. I recieved them from my agency last year to practice with due to a change in ammo companies. I would not bet the farm that what you buy in the store meets LE standards unless it says LE ONLY.
    Except the CD doesn't necessarily perform as advertised, because it has a few other inherent weaknesses.



    Note the top rounds. All rounds fired through 4 layers of denim into the same wetpak. So much for consistent performance through clothing...

    As for LE marked ammo...big deal. It's not hard at all to find, and perfectly legal to use...and is quite often cheaper than the "personal protection" rounds that often use the same bullet (example: Gold Dot/Gold Dot LE...same bullet, it's just that the LE ammo comes in 50 round boxes instead of 20, and are usually only about 1.5x the price of the 20 round box).

    I've got several boxes of LE marked HST, Ranger, and Gold Dot in my cache. Heck...I've got 500 rounds of 9mm Ranger SXT on the way from Surplusammo right now...for about half of what 500 rounds of that CD stuff would run.

    Soo-there are better choices out there, they are available, and they are cheaper. Why would anybody want to run this stuff again?

    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  6. #66
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Looks like you got it covered. Good luck with your endeavors

  7. #67
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Why in the world you you take legal advice from an ammunition manufacturing company?
    Ummm, yeah. Good Question.

    After the whole Eagle CLaw debacle that got the whole line pulled off shelves, Ammo Manufacturers have resorted to saying that their ammo is basically worthless.

    It's called Gluteal Defensive Posturing.
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Donít mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

    Convenire Volui Spectatus

  8. #68
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    What if, what if, what if....here we go. What if you are involved in a SD shooting and your load overpenetrates and kills
    someone not involved.
    I think any company should be applauded for acknowledging the different needs of Joe citizen and catering to them.
    Says the one with 10mm in his name
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.

  9. #69
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
    Says the one with 10mm in his name
    What's that got to do with it? The 135 grn 10mm load is not overpenetrating. If anybody wants the ultimate most versatile do it all autoloader, the 10 is the way to go If anyone is worried about penetrating barriers and such, why play around with the piss-drivers anyway? Why not go with the 10mm..

  10. #70
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    What's that got to do with it? The 135 grn 10mm load is not overpenetrating. If anybody wants the ultimate most versatile do it all autoloader, the 10 is the way to go If anyone is worried about penetrating barriers and such, why play around with the piss-drivers anyway? Why not go with the 10mm..

    You claim you don't need penetration one minute but feel 10mm is good. So you do seem to contradict your statement. Why not go with 10mm? 9mm is easier to shoot for many and works just as well on humans (expansion is about the same), and .45acp is bigger and I'm of the mindset that bigger is better. I'm not a velocity nut which is why I really like Federal HST since it expands to a large diameter. It's also well proven that the HST, even from 9mm, works well through barriers anyway. I don't need .357sig or 10mm for that. I'm not knocking the 10mm at all, I know lots of guys who love the round (Rocky from Pure Kustom & Ted Nugent to name a couple) I was just playing the other side of the argument. I'm sure if I owned a couple 10mm pistols I would like it as well, but I still like my fat ol' .45acp.

    In my mind, if it meets FBI requirements I am more likely to consider it simply because it's a baseline to follow. My HST, Ranger, DPX, and Gold Dot ammo meet the requirements. Why should I accept something that doesn't but is considered "good enough"? Even if you don't like the FBI testing protocols and all their lab work, you cannot deny the fact that they offer a good base from which to look at how various rounds would perform in IDEAL conditions. This can give somewhat of a representation of how the round might function since you can't go out and use real human targets all the time.

    And that ends anything I have to say on the subject whatsoever.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.

  11. #71
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
    You claim you don't need penetration one minute but feel 10mm is good. So you do seem to contradict your statement. Why not go with 10mm? 9mm is easier to shoot for many and works just as well on humans (expansion is about the same), and .45acp is bigger and I'm of the mindset that bigger is better. I'm not a velocity nut which is why I really like Federal HST since it expands to a large diameter. It's also well proven that the HST, even from 9mm, works well through barriers anyway. I don't need .357sig or 10mm for that. I'm not knocking the 10mm at all, I know lots of guys who love the round (Rocky from Pure Kustom & Ted Nugent to name a couple) I was just playing the other side of the argument. I'm sure if I owned a couple 10mm pistols I would like it as well, but I still like my fat ol' .45acp.
    [/I]
    In my mind, if it meets FBI requirements I am more likely to consider it simply because it's a baseline to follow. My HST, Ranger, DPX, and Gold Dot ammo meet the requirements. Why should I accept something that doesn't but is considered "good enough"? Even if you don't like the FBI testing protocols and all their lab work, you cannot deny the fact that they offer a good base from which to look at how various rounds would perform in IDEAL conditions. This can give somewhat of a representation of how the round might function since you can't go out and use real human targets all the time.

    And that ends anything I have to say on the subject whatsoever.
    I never said you did not need penetration, just that the CD is probably going to excell for the use for which it was designed, which for use in crowded areas where the average citizen will be carrying. I guess you are new to the ballgame and just read the last page. It seems since the CC movement began, we have seen many, many people become experts after listening to a few people, read a few mags and take a class from some of the so-called combat expert schools that have popped up around the country. All of a sudden, hype abounds, and when a product is introduced that [I]realistically[I]meets the needs of private citizens it gets slammed. I get concerned about what I read from some people, who attempt to involve themselves in things they have no business getting involved in. People seem to forget when they all of a sudden can carry a gun that there are limits on its uses, and it does not all of a sudden make them experts or crime stoppers, but the mindset is they have to have it because the FBI said so...whatever. I don't care what anyone carrys, just trying to make a point about the CD ammo.

  12. #72
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I never said you did not need penetration, just that the CD is probably going to excell for the use for which it was designed, which for use in crowded areas where the average citizen will be carrying. I guess you are new to the ballgame and just read the last page. It seems since the CC movement began, we have seen many, many people become experts after listening to a few people, read a few mags and take a class from some of the so-called combat expert schools that have popped up around the country. All of a sudden, hype abounds, and when a product is introduced that [I]realistically[I]meets the needs of private citizens it gets slammed. I get concerned about what I read from some people, who attempt to involve themselves in things they have no business getting involved in. People seem to forget when they all of a sudden can carry a gun that there are limits on its uses, and it does not all of a sudden make them experts or crime stoppers, but the mindset is they have to have it because the FBI said so...whatever. I don't care what anyone carrys, just trying to make a point about the CD ammo.

    So...after reading your many posts here, I keep getting the same impression...so let me ask you a quick question to see if I am perhaps understanding your point.

    I get the sense that you don't think that the "Average Joe Citizen" needs the same performance out of their self defense ammo that LEO's use...that a lesser-performing round will do.

    Am I correct?
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  13. #73
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    No, that's not it. Just not really sure that an LE round would do any better given those types of probable defense scenarios. I am sorry if I sound like an elitist. Just voicing an opinion after 22 years of seeing different things. Once again, go with what you think is best for you.

  14. #74
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Given the absolutely terrible state of training most people carrying a gun actually have, I wonder if Critical Defense is actually a good thing.

    Most people have no idea when it is lawful for them to pull the trigger, and have worse ideas of how to actually hit what they are aiming at on a shooting range, let alone when it matters.

    If I am going to be struck by a stray round, I'll eat a critical defense before I get nailed with a ranger t...

  15. #75
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    That was kinda my line of thinking. I was thinking of all the shootings I have seen in cheap aptartments with thin walls.

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