Well I picked up some Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 357 mag ammo today. And am now asking what the point is? The 357 short barrel on Speer's website states the short barrel version only puts out 990 velocity 294 energy?!?!!?! The 38 Special +P puts out 945 and 248! Whats the point in the 357, can anyone find one? Especially since the regular 357 mag in 125gr posts 1450 velocity, and 584 energy.
Seems to me like the short barrel 357 is pointless?:blink:
it sounds better and tougher ..... 357 magnum!
joking aside i'm sure we have a bullet expert here that can explain it to you.
i carry critical defense .38sp +p in my SP101 and don't feel undergunned.
What you are getting for that round is a round specifically calibrated to burn off its powder load inside the barrel of a snubby. That means that you are in effect getting the absolute maximum ballistic efficiency of the cartridge. If you look at the chronograph numbers for the 125 gr. standard .357's I would imagine that those numbers came from a 4 or 6" barrel.
I carry the standard 125 grain GDHP in my M&P340 because of the powder overburn - I carry it as a second when I am on duty and as such expect that I may be using it make contact shots - I like the fact that if I am making contact shots that I am also infusing my target with burning powder in addition to a 125 grain hollow point. When I am carrying my 340 off duty or around the house it is loaded with the 135 grain short barrel rounds, as it slightly reduces recoil and follow on shot accuracy. finally as a third choice of ammo, I load it with Federal low recoil .38 personal defense rounds when I put it in the safe, that way my wife can more comfortably shoot it, as I have a Glock 23 to go to....
In essence you get a large number of choices with a .357 and the 135 grain short barrel round is a key item for me to keep in stock.
Speer's 135 grain short barrel .357 Mag is a relatively light load by design. Speer's ballistic tables show it's only 130 feet per second faster from a 2" test barrel than Speer's 135 grain short barrel 38 Special +P (both cartridges use the same bullet).
If you go much hotter than this light .357 Mag load in a snub-nosed .357 Mag, you are going to get a lot of flash and more recoil. The 135 grain bullet, designed for relatively low velocities, would actually suffer a performance degradation with a high velocity. I think Speer's intent with this cartridge is to keep both the flash and recoil low specifically in a snub-nosed .357 Mag.
Perhaps all this raises another question, why a snub-nosed .357 Mag when a 38 Special is cheaper and gets the job done nearly as well?
Chasboo, to answer your last question see my above post. .357 mag revolvers can handle higher chamber pressures than .38 spec can - ergo more power. Even if sometimes it is only a little more I like having the option.
****edited to mention that there is also the macho factor with .357 out of a airweight J Frame.
Ah! 135 gr. is relatively light for a .357 mag. That caliber is designed to throw heavy bullets, so take advantage of that. For many years, 158 gr. was the industry standard for a .357. It still works well with a lot of penetrating power. You'll get kick and flash, but that downside is outweighed by the power of the round. .357 still ranks very high in "stopability".
Consider the felt recoil and report (noise) of .357 as related to .38 +P is significant no matter the shooter or the environmental condition.
Add to that ability to make follow on shots quickly AND as with relative accuracy.
Do _all_ the math prior to making a judgment one way or the other with these specific two, at a given barrel length, and that includes range time testing under not bullseye precision shooting but combat conditions.
Run the rounds through same length barrel and same type action guns (double action) under 'Bill Drill' conditions.
Janq
Ballistics by the inch ~ 38 Special
That was very enlightening, I really looked at the comparison between .38spl and .327. It helped me; but, I suspect the .327 naysayers would not be interested.
Janq :
DPX yes, maybe a hard cast bullet; but, out of a carbine/lever gun it could be used for all sorts of small to medium hunting applications even small deer to 50 yds
I'd like to see a shot rnd, but, first I'd rather have better availability of ammo.
Some purists would rather not have to deal with the ring of crud that builds up in the chamber of a .357 revolver when firing .38 Special ammo. (Especially, in the case of Titanium cylinders, which should not be scrubbed with certain cleaning products, I would think.) If/when I start handloading, I plan to load my .38-level loads in .357 cases.
IMO the 135 grain short barrel .357 Magnum is for people that want to be able to say they carry .357 Magnum ammunition in their carry gun, but don't actually want to downsides (or the performance) of actually doing so. Its really nothing more than a +P .38 Special in a magnum case. There is nothing wrong with that, in and of its self, but its really shouldn't be marketed as a magnum round because its not.
The ballistics by the inch website in interesting as far as it goes, but since they use a cut down TC contender, their barrel length measurements include the chamber, and therefore have nothing to do with real world performance of 2" revolvers. Their "2" barrel" in the testing actually only has about 1/2" of barrel, the rest is chamber.
Out of my 2 1/4" SP101 the full power 125 grain .357 Magnum Gold Dot averaged 1242 fps and the 125 grain Federal Classic SJHP averaged 1293 fps. That is a significant increase in performance over a 135 grain bullet at ~ 990 fps.
And am now asking what the point is? The 357 short barrel on Speer's website states the short barrel version only puts out 990 velocity 294 energy?!?!!?! The 38 Special +P puts out 945 and 248! Whats the point in the 357, can anyone find one? Especially since the regular 357 mag in 125gr posts 1450 velocity, and 584 energy.
In a 4" or 5" revolver, the two different rounds will have certain performance.
In a 2" snubbie revolver, the two rounds will have quite different performance.
As we all know, ammunition is generally tuned by the mfrs to a given barrel length, to best manage the pressure, and to result in the best combination of blast, flame, smoke, recoil, etc.
In a given 2" snubbie revolver, I'd be willing to bet that the on-target force (ft-lbs) would much more similar between the two different rounds than implied by the printing on the boxes of ammo. Which cartridge would be preferable in a 2" snubbie? Hard to know, until both are tested in a 2" snubbie, but it's likely the "short bbl" ammo has been tuned to maintain what energy it can while reducing flame, blast, smoke, recoil to what's reasonable on a 2" snubbie.
Question: Is the comparison between the performance figures being made in a single 4" gun, or in a single 2" snubbie gun? Or, is the comparison impossible due to simply taking the numbers off the box and attempting an apples-to-oranges comparison?
Still too hot for my S&W Airlite 360 so I loaded my own working up by increasing powder (autocomp)
I chrono'd everything I had which included some 158gr magnums and Gold Dot Speer Short-Barrel .357's. 1010fps on the full magnum and 990fps on the Short-Barrel. That is a 134 power factor on the short barrel and 159 power factor on the full magnum. Both shot out of a 2 inch barrel.
Both left my trigger finger in pain from a hit of the trigger guard. Both were way off on accuracy.
A simply load of 8gr of Autocomp produced about 900fps of a 125 gr JHP or 112 PF, still inaccurate. I worked down to 6.5 grains and pushed the 125gr bullet at about 780fps. The group was now and actual group and bulls eye every time at 7 yards.
Other short barrel revolvers may function better with heavy loads but my Airlite is all over the target. I guess I would rather have accuracy and avoid a bloody finger in a carry gun.
Still too hot for my S&W Airlite 360 so I loaded my own working up by increasing powder (autocomp)
I chrono'd everything I had which included some 158gr magnums and Gold Dot Speer Short-Barrel .357's. 1010fps on the full magnum and 990fps on the Short-Barrel. That is a 134 power factor on the short barrel and 159 power factor on the full magnum. Both shot out of a 2 inch barrel.
Both left my trigger finger in pain from a hit of the trigger guard. Both were way off on accuracy.
A simply load of 8gr of Autocomp produced about 900fps of a 125 gr JHP or 112 PF, still inaccurate. I worked down to 6.5 grains and pushed the 125gr bullet at about 780fps. The group was now and actual group and bulls eye every time at 7 yards.
Other short barrel revolvers may function better with heavy loads but my Airlite is all over the target. I guess I would rather have accuracy and avoid a bloody finger in a carry gun.
Part of the accuracy issue is the Scandium frame. It flexes more with the magnums. I found that mine flexed so much that the cylinder was actually making contact with the frame at the top front/bottom rear.
All my magnums are steel. The 125 grain Winchester JHP will do 1200 fps from my 640, the Remington 125's run about 1250 fps.
For your air weight I would suggest some 158 grain LSWCHP +P also known as the FBI load.
Marketting. And the widespread idea that 'everything' should be very easy to master if not intuitive.
Skill with handgun (any firearm, really) only comes with practice and application. Watching John Wayne movies, or Clint Eastwood movies, or war movies or Youtube will not instill competence.
Power from any firearm comes at the cost of recoil. Recoil is only mastered in a specific weight firearm by acclimation or discovery of technique. The ammunition in the opening of this thread is an example. Regardless of the cartridge title, a .357 Magnum cartridge will render power in direct relation to recoil. A*heavier arm does reduce recoil, but in a concealment arm there are limits.
One technique which seems to work for me is to use heavier bullets with flat fronts at lesser velocities. Cast lead bullets with flat fronts (like a wadcutter without a hollow base) at 'reasonable' velocities deliver an energy transfer much greater than a 'pointy' projectile which passes right through a body.
I think the Remington 357mag 125g Golddot is a great option for use in a 357mag snubbie...
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Defensive Carry
5.4M posts
117.5K members
Since 2004
A forum community dedicated to defensive firearm owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about everyday carry, optics, holsters, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!