HD Shotgun Ammo

This is a discussion on HD Shotgun Ammo within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; sigmanluke - Just for the sake of argument, if you NEED a 1/2" wider wound channel, maybe you should just practice until you're 1/2" more ...

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Thread: HD Shotgun Ammo

  1. #46
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    sigmanluke - Just for the sake of argument, if you NEED a 1/2" wider wound channel, maybe you should just practice until you're 1/2" more accurate? :)

    Add this to the fact that I can get off 4-5 "combat aimed" shots from my rifle in the time it takes to fire two rounds from my shotgun, and I think the carbine at least equals the SG in terms of total wound channel diameter, energy, etc. Combine this with greater inherent accuracy, ease of use with one hand (especially with pumps), more capacity, less recoil, and so on, and I've come to the realization that, for me, the carbine trumps the SG for everything except skeet/trap/certain hunting applications.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Carbine terminal effects (with 5.56 or .223) depend to a great degree on whether the bullet yaws or expands - or not.

    This is not the case with buckshot.

    If the 5.56/.223 does not yaw, fragment, or expand, it can be a surprisingly ineffective round - passing right through leaving an "ice pick" type wound. Unless it hits something vital, not very effective. We saw this with skinny militiamen in Somalia.

    Buckshot gives you more of a margin for error at close range. You still need to aim, but it is less dependent on the projectile acting in a certain way.

    JMHO.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  4. #48
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Carbine terminal effects (with 5.56 or .223) depend to a great degree on whether the bullet yaws or expands - or not.

    This is not the case with buckshot.

    If the 5.56/.223 does not yaw, fragment, or expand, it can be a surprisingly ineffective round - passing right through leaving an "ice pick" type wound. Unless it hits something vital, not very effective. We saw this with skinny militiamen in Somalia.

    Buckshot gives you more of a margin for error at close range. You still need to aim, but it is less dependent on the projectile acting in a certain way.

    JMHO.
    If one is shooting ball ammo...particularly M855...your points are valid.

    However, since we're talking about using it for HD, we aren't limited to/handicapped by using ball ammo; and the modern hollowpoints out today tend to be excellent terminal performers.

    That's why my first choice for a HD longarm is my AR loaded with either Hornady TAP or Federal Vital-Shok (Barnes TSX bullet), and not a 12-ga shotgun.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronny View Post
    I completely disagree with your premise of a 1 projectile group maximizing damage.
    I never said it maximized damage.

    You're also losing the advantage of using a shotgun at short/near contact distances.
    No, the advantage, however perceived, of close range shotgun use is still present. Nothing is being lost. Just because your shotgun is loaded with slugs doesn't mean it can't be used at short range.

    A close distance shotgun blast destroys everything,
    No it doesn't.

    even the wad penetrates and acts like another projectile
    The wad still contains the shot charge for several feet and usually doesn't separate until at least 10 feet from the muzzle. If shot inside 10y, the shot and wad are one unit for the most part, as your spread will be only 2-3 inches at best, depending on choke. A high velocity plastic wad will usually not penetrate as a through and through wound, most of the time it will be contained in the body since the wad lacks the mass for adequate penetration.

    nothing but a mess is left of what it touches.
    A mess can be many things, but a mess isn't the optimal goal. Most of the 'mess' from a shotgun blast of shot is surface wounding. I've seen plenty of bodies on slabs due to shotgun use at close range. The skin looks like hell, but internally it's not as bad as you would think. It's like a cut on the lip. Bleeds like a mother, but the cut itself isn't that bad at all. Shotgun blasts look horrendous but aren't really that bad once you get inside the body cavity and look around.

    Human beings can't survive a shotgun blast to the chest at close range.
    They have and they will continue to do so. A shotgun isn't a talisman, nor any firearm.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Carbine terminal effects (with 5.56 or .223) depend to a great degree on whether the bullet yaws or expands - or not.

    This is not the case with buckshot.

    If the 5.56/.223 does not yaw, fragment, or expand, it can be a surprisingly ineffective round - passing right through leaving an "ice pick" type wound. Unless it hits something vital, not very effective. We saw this with skinny militiamen in Somalia.

    Buckshot gives you more of a margin for error at close range. You still need to aim, but it is less dependent on the projectile acting in a certain way.

    And ditto Tubby on continuing to try to dispell the myth that a shotgun is somehow a "death ray," at any range. All of these tools depend on damaging things (tissue, bones) through mechanical action; there are no guarantees.

    JMHO.
    Well, you're correct, as far as that goes...

    HOWEVER: A 5.56 can yaw and fragment (or expand via a more traditional mechanism such as an HP or JSP round); a buckshot pellet, for all intents and purposes, cannot. So, what type of wound is a non-expanding ball of roughly the same caliber, moving slower, going to produce? A straight through, "ice pick" type wound...

    Yes, you may get more of them per trigger pull, but you will be pulling the trigger more slowly and will only be able to pull the trigger a very limited number of times vis a vis most carbines.

    I still maintain that a good SD load from a carbine will get more, more accurate, and more (potentially) yawing/fragmenting/ expanding wounds on target (at least in my hands) than will a shotgun.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  7. #51
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    Agree that a 5.56 JHP or JSP is better than FMJ. No question there. However, no expanding bullet expands all the time. Nor do they yaw or fragment all the time.

    Buckshot, however, will always produce numerous wound tracks.

    I guess I prefer 16 guaranteed .30 cal wound (#1 buckshot) tracks delivered at the same time.

    One other advantage of buckshot no one mentioned yet - it is much easier to hit a moving target with something - though you do need to be mindful of where any missed pellets might end up.

    Bottom line - my shotgun has but one purpose...it is the last line of defense once my family is holed up in our safe room. I trust its ability to stop an aggressor right now more than a carbine firing a small, light, fast bullet. Sure, I may need to fire a second or even a third shell - but I doubt I'll need to.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  8. #52
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    We agree for the most part. I still think a carbine is better for multiple assailants, and that I can put as much "ouch" on the BG(s) in the same amount of time (or faster) with one than I can with a shotgun. I can also track faster with a carbine for moving targets, as I can have a shorter, thinner (and therefore lighter) barrel hanging out there to swing around (as well as no extra weight in the form of a magazine tube, in most cases).

    I'll certainly not discount the SG as an HD weapon - it has put down more than its fair share of bad guys - it just isn't my first choice.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronny View Post
    I completely disagree with your premise of a 1 projectile group maximizing damage. You're also losing the advantage of using a shotgun at short/near contact distances. You might as well use a rifle. A close distance shotgun blast destroys everything, even the wad penetrates and acts like another projectile, nothing but a mess is left of what it touches. Human beings can't survive a shotgun blast to the chest at close range.
    You've been getting your research data from entirely too many movies and TV shows, if you really believe this.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    We agree for the most part. I still think a carbine is better for multiple assailants, and that I can put as much "ouch" on the BG(s) in the same amount of time (or faster) with one than I can with a shotgun. I can also track faster with a carbine for moving targets, as I can have a shorter, thinner (and therefore lighter) barrel hanging out there to swing around (as well as no extra weight in the form of a magazine tube, in most cases).

    I'll certainly not discount the SG as an HD weapon - it has put down more than its fair share of bad guys - it just isn't my first choice.
    Yup. Different tools for different jobs. I'm not as concerned about multiple targets, since the job is static defense. Any BGs are going to be funneled in my hallway or in my door way. I shoot trap with my shotgun, so swinging it is not a problem...I get lots of practice!

    Now, if I need to go outside, I'm bringing the Mini 14...

    Edit - Indoors, I consider the shotgun my very own mini-Claymore mine...
    Last edited by 10thmtn; May 26th, 2010 at 06:03 PM.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefrcd View Post
    I to prefer the Federal Law Enforcement Low Recoil Rounds, both 00 buck and Slug. Much reduced recoil, even my wife will shoot them.
    +1 I use the low recoil 00 buck as well.

  12. #56
    Member Array Ronny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    You've been getting your research data from entirely too many movies and TV shows, if you really believe this.
    I saw what a pheasant hunting accident with regular bird shot did to a man's upper leg and thigh. He only survived because of quick thinking of his partner to use his belt as a turniquite. I have no doubt that if it were buck instead of bird shot his leg would no longer exist or more likely that he'd have bled out within 40 seconds.

  13. #57
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    As I said in my first post in this thread, I am loaded with 00buck in the mag. The slugs are for if I choose one. Buck shot is great, but if I'm worried about where any misses may go, I'll use a slug. I am not worried about missing at that range with a slug. I'd also be more worried about a through and through with my rifle at that range.

    To each, their own.
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  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronny View Post
    I saw what a pheasant hunting accident with regular bird shot did to a man's upper leg and thigh. He only survived because of quick thinking of his partner to use his belt as a turniquite. I have no doubt that if it were buck instead of bird shot his leg would no longer exist or more likely that he'd have bled out within 40 seconds.
    One of my EMT instructors is a former sheriff's deputy that took a load of 00 to the back of his thigh at point blank range while doing a high-risk entry. When it occurred, he didn't even realize he'd been shot until he started to fall down(took out a chunk of femur)...he thought somebody behind him had dropped a flashbang. He didn't bleed out in 40 seconds, even though the femoral was hit.

    Leg is still attached, he walks with a slight limp.

    Like I said earlier, the shotgun is not the be-all, end-all weapon you seem to think it is.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  15. #59
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    I have 4 of these in the tube of my 870 express: http://www.jgsales.com/popup_image.p...31759b7f22f0df

    .60 cal ball followed by 6 .30cal shot @ 1300fps. Best of both worlds.

    I also have a bondolier of 18 00buck rnds and 6 rnds of the Centurion shot shells, and a side saddle on the stock with 5 Federal 1ounce slugs.

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    I'm not sure about "buck and ball." At typical indoor ranges, buckshot already meets the penetration standards, so using a ball and giving up some buckshot just ends up sacrificing wound tracks for no real gain.

    Now, outdoors...at extended ranges...the ball would give you better penetration than the buckshot, due to its greater mass. However, the ball does not have the accuracy of a slug, so...I'm not sure of the point.

    Sure does look cool, though.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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