155 or 180 grain - Page 3

155 or 180 grain

This is a discussion on 155 or 180 grain within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by AZ Hawk Eh, all of this is false. Please elaborate. Does anyone have any sources in this matter? Everyone is def. not ...

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Thread: 155 or 180 grain

  1. #31
    Member Array dyvegas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    Eh, all of this is false.
    Please elaborate. Does anyone have any sources in this matter? Everyone is def. not on the same page on this topic. We need some concrete stuff. No more heresay.
    Last edited by dyvegas; June 6th, 2010 at 11:09 PM.
    Glock 27 & 22. Comp-Tac Minotaur MTAC IWB holster.


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    And you might find this interesting as well: http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollec...law_bullit.swf

    You'll notice that Winchester doesn't make any LE ammo in 155gr...
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  4. #34
    Member Array dyvegas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    And you might find this interesting as well: http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollec...law_bullit.swf

    You'll notice that Winchester doesn't make any LE ammo in 155gr...
    That's a good link, here is the one for Federal HST:

    http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf
    Glock 27 & 22. Comp-Tac Minotaur MTAC IWB holster.

  5. #35
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    I distinguish LE from HD as does LEO, Masaad Ayoob. Here are a couple of good articles from him that recommend the lighter load.
    Street Conclusions. Please scroll to the middle of the page for .40 Smith & Wesson.
    And scroll to middle on this one for .40, also, SD Ammo
    From the first article:
    First generation ammo, a 180-grain subsonic with a conventional JHP bullet, did better than expected, but still wasn’t spectacular. It pretty much duplicates the ballistics of the old .38/40 black powder handgun load of the 19th century frontier. I’ve run across a lot of shoot-throughs with 180-grain standard JHP, more than would be desirable for home defense.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  6. #36
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    You will find a ton of evidence to support both. In the end, it's personal choice.

    I use the heaviest bullet myself.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
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  7. #37
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    180 gr. vs. 155 gr.

    I've shot the G.F.'s Glock 22 with both of these rounds in various brands, and I find it hard to tell a difference in terms of accuracy.

    Based upon my paramedic experience, I would go with the 155 gr.

    A lighter bullet flies faster and is therefore more likely to expand. I've run many 911 calls with injured bystanders (I used to work in a lot of crowded trailer parks and inner city tenements), and I don't like the idea of overpenetration.

    If I was in big sky country out in Montana or Idaho, I might feel differently . . . but I can only go by my experience in a crowded, urban area.

    All my best,

    ---Kevin

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Horse View Post
    A lighter bullet flies faster and is therefore more likely to expand.
    Twenty years ago that statement would have been true in many cases. However, modern premium JHP's WILL expand every single time given that the round doesn't come from a bad lot and/or isn't defective in some way. And with a .40, you generally shouldn't have to worry about overpenetration if you hit your target where you're supposed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Horse View Post
    If I was in big sky country out in Montana or Idaho, I might feel differently . . . but I can only go by my experience in a crowded, urban area.
    A lighter, faster bullet will remain in the air longer than a heavier, slower bullet for a greater distance and amount of time. Based on wind speed, it will also likely travel in a straighter line for a longer amount of time.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Some great LE tests here:

    LE - Wound Ballistics

    Also watch the videos. Many of your questions will be answered by professionals testing to FBI standards.
    NRA Life Member

  10. #40
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    It's not the small difference in bullet weight that counts, it's the velocity! test fire each into a large bundle of completely wet newspaper then judge for yourself the expansion characteristics of the bullet. Adequate penetration with either bullet is not an issue, shooting through and hitting an innocent bystander is an issue.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart View Post
    It's not the small difference in bullet weight that counts, it's the velocity! test fire each into a large bundle of completely wet newspaper then judge for yourself the expansion characteristics of the bullet. Adequate penetration with either bullet is not an issue, shooting through and hitting an innocent bystander is an issue.
    Velocity seems to be the "holy grail" for a lot of folks when they decide to choose their handgun ammo, and they tend to gravitate towards +P or even +P+ loads. As mentioned above, velocity is not always good or useful. This is something to keep in mind when deciding between a "fast" 127gr +P+ or 147gr load in 9mm for example. Another factor is the ability to control the follow-up shot. If you have two loads which both perform about the same, you might consider going to the slow/heavy bullet due to the fact that the slower load is more easily controlled. Consider the data from Winchester in regards to their 9mm 127gr +P+ load (1250 fps) versus the 147gr load (990 fps) in the Ranger-T line:

    Gelatin
    127gr = 12.3" penetration and 0.64" ED
    147gr = 13.9" penetration and 0.65" ED

    4-Ply Denim
    127gr = 12.5" penetration and 0.68" ED
    147gr = 14.5" penetration and 0.66" ED

    Heavy Cloth
    127gr = 12.2" penetration and 0.68" ED
    147gr = 14.0" penetration and 0.66" ED
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    I have XD40s in Service and Subcompact. I don't worry about the performance in the subcompact as much (I don't agonize about not having the Short Barrel box) because it's mostly a cold weather backup in my coat pocket.

    I agonized over the 'bullet weight' question when I bought my .40. Someone mentioned that the .40s&w was designed around the 180gr bullet. This is only partially true. The 10mm was downloaded to 8-900fps with a 180gr bullet, and the .40 s&w was created to duplicate that round. Since then, a lot of people smarter than I have concluded that the 165gr performs better in the shorter case of the.40 S&w. That's what I carry now, 165gr Gold Dot.

    In the reference below, you can see how quickly the 155 loses energy, where the 165 maintains it (I had no idea 10 grains could make so much difference), and the 180 starts out so much lower. I don't expect to be shooting at that kind of distance (why I didn't include bullet drop), but that gives me an idea of how fast the bullet would lose energy inside a fleshy mass of mostly water. 165 seems to be the best balance, but if I had that nice 10mm I wanted, I'd be loading it with 200gr. I think it's just the matter of the size of the 180gr bullet inside the .40 S&W case not leaving as much room for powder.

    Like I said, none of this is my research, but I did the cross checking before I bought my bulk of ammunition. I bought a couple of boxes of 180gr Hydra-Shok, did the research, and bought a case of 165gr Gold Dot.

    Now, I pray every time I holster my pistol every morning that this remains academic, and I never have to actually find out how this ammo performs in my gun, in my hand. But if I do, I know I don't have to worry about it. Like shooterX said, you can't really go wrong with any of them, especially in Gold Dot or HST.


    Speer Ammo - Ballistics Tables


    180gr:

    Velocity (ft/s)
    1025 - muzzle
    956 - 50 yards
    902 - 100 yards

    Energy (ft-lbs)
    420 - Muzzle
    365 - 50 yards
    325 - 100 yards

    ---------------

    165gr:

    Velocity (ft/s)
    1150 - muzzle
    1042 - 50 yards
    967 - 100 yards

    Energy (ft-lbs)
    484 - Muzzle
    398 - 50 yards
    342 - 100 yards

    ---------------

    155gr:

    Velocity (ft/s)
    1200 - muzzle
    1063 - 50 yards
    974 - 100 yards

    Energy (ft-lbs)
    496 - Muzzle
    389 - 50 yards
    326 - 100 yards

    -----

    Btw. . . first post, how'd I do? :)

    Tim

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Nice post, Tim, and welcome to the forums!
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Thanks :)

  15. #45
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    Shoot what YOU shoot best and only what cycles with 100% reliability in that particular pistol!

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