155 or 180 grain - Page 4

155 or 180 grain

This is a discussion on 155 or 180 grain within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Ronny Heavier bullets penetrate better to reach vital organs like the heart, lungs, and liver. Lighter bullets do more surface trauma but ...

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Thread: 155 or 180 grain

  1. #46
    Member Array HK Jake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronny View Post
    Heavier bullets penetrate better to reach vital organs like the heart, lungs, and liver. Lighter bullets do more surface trauma but may fail to penetrate adequatly. The FBI uses a 165 grain round. I have my sig 229 loaded with 165 gr HST rounds. Your gold dots are an awesome bullet choice, btw, and they are used by hundreds of law enforcement agencies.

    I like to see gel tests like these Brass Fetcher Ballistic Gelatin testing
    The FBI along with many other federal agencies carry the 180gr Winchester PDX1.
    "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." - Col. Jeff Cooper

    [EDC: HK P2000 SK .40 S&W]

  2. #47
    Member Array ranastas's Avatar
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    I agree with RebelRabbi, even though i love the heavy bullet when its pushed right (230 +p HST for me) it has to be what you shoot best with and cycles flawlessly. No bullet in any place gaurantees a stop other than a CNS disruption, so accurate and often hits usualy prevail that being said when a hair wider or a bit deeper means the difference in stooping the threat or becoming a victim, i want the biggest "rock" i can hit you with

  3. #48
    New Member Array Kdub1974's Avatar
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    Epic

    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    I concur...I also use 160gr HST rounds in my P229/.40
    Off topic, but your quote Martyr is a name for crappy fighter? EPIC. Thank you for your service. May God bless you and bring you home home safe and sound.

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  5. #49
    Distinguished Member Array DHart's Avatar
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    Chasing velocity numbers or energy numbers is folly.

    Chase bullet performance. It doesn't matter what the velocity or energy of a round is, if the bullet performance in the target/media/threat is a proven winner.

    Proven penetration combined with consistent, reliable expansion is what you want to trust in. Read all about it:
    http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

    I wouldn't want to be hit by ANY .40AS&W load, including target ammo of any bullet weight.

    But in my experience, the 180 gr defense loads have less felt recoil and perform exceptionally well.

    I prefer heavy bullet weight for caliber (147 gr in 9mm, 180 gr in .40, and 230 gr in 45auto). The momentum with a heavier bullet weight enables better penetration of the numerous bones (hands, wrists, forearms, ribs, sternum, etc.) that are expected to be between you and ending the threat. Lighter bullets are more likely to deflect; heavier bullets are less likely to deflect.

    Lighter bullet weight loads which have the same power factor as heavier bullet weight loads have MORE felt recoil because they require more gunpowder to achieve the same power factor as the heavier bullet weight!

    Make my defense load 180 gr HST.
    http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

    Make my target loads 180 gr.

    .40S&W is a magnificent caliber and is a joy to practice with when using 180 gr ammo. And I trust it to do the job of ending a threat if I do my part well.
    Last edited by DHart; November 1st, 2016 at 04:08 PM.
    “Inequality" is a law of nature, not something government can "re-distribute”. The fit, well-educated, hard-working will prosper. And the unfit will not. It is not the responsibility of those who work hard and prosper to make the lives of those who do not, more “equal."

  6. #50
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    I'm like DHart and prefer bullets on the heavy end of the range of bullet weights available for a given caliber.
    glockman10mm and DHart like this.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

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  7. #51
    Member Array muzzleblast's Avatar
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    Very nice and concise summary, DHart.
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  8. #52
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    I just got my M&P Shield. I bought 115 and 124 RN and HP to start with. I feel the range load should match the SD mode. Sound like I should have gotten 147 instead. I thought the 147 would have more recoil/kick.

  9. #53
    Distinguished Member Array DHart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sportymonk View Post
    I just got my M&P Shield. I bought 115 and 124 RN and HP to start with. I feel the range load should match the SD mode. Sound like I should have gotten 147 instead. I thought the 147 would have more recoil/kick.
    Monk... a good 124 gr load in 9mm is relatively comparable to a good 147 gr load, so you didn't go wrong with the 124 gr. For the most part, if you choose an HST, Gold Dot, or Ranger defense load, you've done very well in your choice.

    See the luckygunner link in my post above to learn just how well each tested load did in ballistic gelatin. Keep in mind that ballistic gelatin is not a good predictor of how performance is in a human body, but it is a consistent test medium to compare different loads. If you're defending against an assailant, it is likely he will have his arms and hands outstretched in front of his body, so you very well may need to penetrate through bones in the hands, wrists, forearms, then clothing, then skin/fat, then sternum/rib cage, then muscles, tendons, organs, fat (perhaps a lot of muscle or fat). So, as you can see, ballistic gelatin is a very imperfect medium as a substitute for the human body or an animal's body.
    “Inequality" is a law of nature, not something government can "re-distribute”. The fit, well-educated, hard-working will prosper. And the unfit will not. It is not the responsibility of those who work hard and prosper to make the lives of those who do not, more “equal."

  10. #54
    Member Array muzzleblast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    ... Keep in mind that ballistic gelatin is not a good predictor of how performance is in a human body, but it is a consistent test medium to compare different loads. If you're defending against an assailant, it is likely he will have his arms and hands outstretched in front of his body, so you very well may need to penetrate through bones in the hands, wrists, forearms, then clothing, then skin/fat, then sternum/rib cage, then muscles, tendons, organs, fat (perhaps a lot of muscle or fat). So, as you can see, ballistic gelatin is a very imperfect medium as a substitute for the human body or an animal's body.
    And this is basically the essence of the matter relative to ammo performance testing. Ballistic gelatin is fine for comparing ammo to ammo in a consistent media. Four layers of denim gives an indication of plugging, or not... in four layers of denim. I have often wondered what the result would be if one took gelatin results for a given load and then compared to: 25 lbs of ground beef, wrapped in baby back ribs, then covered with flannel and a Carhart coat.

    Of course, neither my BBQ pit, my wallet, or my wife would forgive me.
    DHart likes this.

  11. #55
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    lungbuster Heres an ammo test done with 3.5" short barrel pistols and I can help YOU make up your mind about what to try .

    I would not put much stock in FBI test as they tend to change far to often and there needs and handguns as in barrel length tend to be different from what many people carry and how you use it if ever needed . Like shooting thru metal as in vehicle body panels or windsheilds . Beside , if you look at all the different government agencies , state , county and city LE most every premium brand , cartridge and bullet weight will be used !!

    http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...ic-tests/#40SW

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
    And this is basically the essence of the matter relative to ammo performance testing. Ballistic gelatin is fine for comparing ammo to ammo in a consistent media. Four layers of denim gives an indication of plugging, or not... in four layers of denim. I have often wondered what the result would be if one took gelatin results for a given load and then compared to: 25 lbs of ground beef, wrapped in baby back ribs, then covered with flannel and a Carhart coat.

    Of course, neither my BBQ pit, my wallet, or my wife would forgive me.
    How about 170 pounds of fur, sinew, muscle and bone?
    155 or 180 grain-img_1118.jpg
    155 or 180 grain-img_1121.jpg

    Took this guy a few few years ago with a G22 and 180 weight Nosler bullet chronographed at just a tad under 1100fps.

    Bullet was recovered on the offside under the fur, almost pushing thru.
    155 or 180 grain-img_1125.jpg

    No, the bullet isn't a pretty flowery bloom like demonstrated in gel tests, but held together, opened up and maintained weight despite hitting bones, and providing an instant downed deer that was not getting up:) 10-15 yards estimated.

    Ive also experimented with 147 weight 9mm; not nearly as impressive.
    wdbailey, AnthonyC, DHart and 1 others like this.
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  13. #57
    Member Array muzzleblast's Avatar
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    Very nice. Thank you for sharing.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    How about 170 pounds of fur, sinew, muscle and bone?

    Bullet was recovered on the offside under the fur, almost pushing thru.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    No, the bullet isn't a pretty flowery bloom like demonstrated in gel tests, but held together, opened up and maintained weight despite hitting bones, and providing an instant downed deer that was not getting up:) 10-15 yards estimated.

    Ive also experimented with 147 weight 9mm; not nearly as impressive.
    glockman10mm and wdbailey like this.

  14. #58
    Distinguished Member Array DHart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    How about 170 pounds of fur, sinew, muscle and bone?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Took this guy a few few years ago with a G22 and 180 weight Nosler bullet chronographed at just a tad under 1100fps.

    Bullet was recovered on the offside under the fur, almost pushing thru.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_1125.jpg 
Views:	56 
Size:	98.9 KB 
ID:	160401

    No, the bullet isn't a pretty flowery bloom like demonstrated in gel tests, but held together, opened up and maintained weight despite hitting bones, and providing an instant downed deer that was not getting up:) 10-15 yards estimated.

    Ive also experimented with 147 weight 9mm; not nearly as impressive.
    Excellent test media and bullet performance! .40S&W is an great caliber indeed. My chosen carry gun caliber.
    AnthonyC and glockman10mm like this.
    “Inequality" is a law of nature, not something government can "re-distribute”. The fit, well-educated, hard-working will prosper. And the unfit will not. It is not the responsibility of those who work hard and prosper to make the lives of those who do not, more “equal."

  15. #59
    Member Array AnthonyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    How about 170 pounds of fur, sinew, muscle and bone?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_1118.jpg 
Views:	56 
Size:	357.3 KB 
ID:	160385
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_1121.jpg 
Views:	54 
Size:	360.8 KB 
ID:	160393

    Took this guy a few few years ago with a G22 and 180 weight Nosler bullet chronographed at just a tad under 1100fps.

    Bullet was recovered on the offside under the fur, almost pushing thru.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_1125.jpg 
Views:	56 
Size:	98.9 KB 
ID:	160401

    No, the bullet isn't a pretty flowery bloom like demonstrated in gel tests, but held together, opened up and maintained weight despite hitting bones, and providing an instant downed deer that was not getting up:) 10-15 yards estimated.

    Ive also experimented with 147 weight 9mm; not nearly as impressive.
    Best reason I have seen and read that the .40 cal makes a good all-round cartridge for home/self defense and backpacking. I am not saying that this is ideal for grizzly and moose but 11 rounds of 180 gr is nothing to scoff at and can be carried in a relatively small pistol.
    DHart and muzzleblast like this.

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    Excellent test media and bullet performance! .40S&W is an great caliber indeed. My chosen carry gun caliber.
    Truth is, I carry a G26 just about all the time. Not that I like the 9mm better, but, I reckon it's able to do the job, and, I like the platform caliber match up.
    Aaaaand, an offside reason is that I haven't got around to putting a Dawson Precision night sight on the G27:)

    The G22 pictured was my duty gun before I retired, and it's primarily my woods bumming gun loaded with the controlled expansion 180's.
    I prefer heavy for caliber bullets, although I'd say a mid weight bullet in a 9mm or 40s&w zinged along at good speed would do pretty well in thin skinned biped....but the heavier loadings do take the worry out of it with regards to enough penetration.
    DHart and muzzleblast like this.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight"
    -Jeff Cooper

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