This can't be normal - Federal HST 45

This is a discussion on This can't be normal - Federal HST 45 within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A few months back I bought a box of 50 Federal HST .45 ACP +P (P45HST1). As I loaded up a new mag today I ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23

Thread: This can't be normal - Federal HST 45

  1. #1
    New Member Array FlyfishMike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Bountiful, UT
    Posts
    10

    This can't be normal - Federal HST 45

    A few months back I bought a box of 50 Federal HST .45 ACP +P (P45HST1). As I loaded up a new mag today I noticed something odd about a few rounds. I've never seen anything like this with other 45's. I haven't been reloading long but this just doesn't look right. There seems to be a super heavy roll crimp half way between the cannelure and the top of the case. This pics will show this better. A normal cases measures .471" while the weird ones are .464" a pretty big difference.


    The left bullet is the weird one.


    Here's another pic without flash to show definition. You can barely make out the ring on the right one.

    I did a thorough inspection and: I initially shot 5, 11 were really bad while the remaining 34 varied from slight to almost normal. On closer inspection all had that weird ring around them to some degree. The 5 I shot fired fine and felt like +P ammo should. I should also note the box is labeled "Federal Premium Law Enforcement Ammunition." I thought the LE stuff went through an even tougher inspection??

    This can't be normal??

    ^^ike

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Senior Member Array DIABLO9489's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Buffalo
    Posts
    1,071
    I'll have to take a look at my box of HST .45 when I get home and see if mine also look like this.
    Colt New Agent, Dan Wesson V-Bob, Glock 19,20SF, 23, 26, 27, 29, 30SF, 36, Kahr P380 w/CT, PM9, PM45, CW9(SOLD), Kel-Tec P32, P3AT, PF9(SOLD), Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry II, Stainless Pro TLE/RL II (SOLD), Rohrbaugh R9s, Ruger LCP w/CT, LCR, SP101 S&W J-Frame 638 w/CT, M&P 340 w/CT, Walther PPK/S

  4. #3
    Distinguished Member Array orangevol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Southwest, TN
    Posts
    1,246
    I just looked at a full box of .45 HST's I recently ordered from GT Distributors. They look normal with straight walls just like any other .45 ACP's.

    I would not shoot any more and contact Federal asap with the attached photo's. Their QA Dept might be very interested in seeing these and you may get a couple of free boxes as compensation.
    Proud NRA member

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,448
    I just looked at a few HST's in .40 S&W and didn't see any rings like the ones in your pics.

    I know you asked about .45 acp, nut I don't have any close by.
    Last edited by varob; June 27th, 2010 at 03:48 PM.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  6. #5
    Member Array Emrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Chaska, MN
    Posts
    89
    That's weird. That usually happens while seating the bullet if you haven't belled the case mouth open. It cruses the case as the bullet is being seated. Also, that "dotted line" you see on cases are NOT a cannelure; they are not from crimping. If you pull a .45 ACP bullet, it is nowhere near that deep in the case.

    Plus, cannelures are on the bullet. A .45 ACP is taper crimped and does not leave crimping marks on the case.

    What you have is a fluke of manufacturing and it's great that you caught it. It may have chambered, and may not have. Either way, firing it would be dangerous.

    Federal HST is probably the cream of the crop of personal protection ammo with REALLY high quality control. Manufacturers DO makes mistakes though, as can be seen. I would contact Federal and send them these pics. I'm sure they'd want to know about it.

    Good catch.

    Emrah

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Naugatuck, CT
    Posts
    2,406
    Quote Originally Posted by Emrah View Post
    That's weird. That usually happens while seating the bullet if you haven't belled the case mouth open. It cruses the case as the bullet is being seated. Also, that "dotted line" you see on cases are NOT a cannelure; they are not from crimping. If you pull a .45 ACP bullet, it is nowhere near that deep in the case.
    That is incorrect; cases can have a cannelure. That's exactly what the ring around the case is called. I have hundreds of .38 Special cases with the cannelure - all nickel cases.

    From the GunTek Dictionary:

    1. A circumferential groove generally of corrugated appearance cut or impressed into a bullet or cartridge case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emrah View Post

    What you have is a fluke of manufacturing and it's great that you caught it. It may have chambered, and may not have.
    I agree it's a manufacturing fluke, but it is not all that uncommon. I have personally run across a few over the years.

    Either way, firing it would be dangerous.
    On what basis do you make that statement? The OAL is the same, the diameter of the case and bullet are the same. Any pressure increase because of the crease in the case will be more perceived than real and well within the normal variation. When the case is examined after firing it will be indistinguishable from any other case as firing will "iron out" the wrinkle.

    The above is based on my experience shooting the previously encountered rounds.

    To the OP, I would have no hesitation to fire the round.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #7
    Member Array Tarowah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    51
    I have a few 9mm 147gr HST's that are doing that, I dont have time to get pics up but I have a theory as to why mine are doing it, will add more when I get back from lunch.
    Gen 3 G19 ~ Gen 3 G19 OD ~ Gen 3 G34 ~ PT 738 ~ M&P 9mm ~ Ruger 22/45 4" bull barrel ~ Marlin 60~ PSA M4 Carbine ~

  9. #8
    kpw
    kpw is offline
    VIP Member Array kpw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,149
    I'd send them back to Federal in a heartbeat. This is expensive, defensive ammunition and your paying a premium for that. Wether they are dangerous to shoot or not, the possibility of malfunctions because of out of spec ammo is enough that I wouldn't use them even for practice. Your paying a premium price and you should be getting premium ammo. Not someones first day on the job rejects.
    "In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power." -
    -- Marcus Tullius Cicero

  10. #9
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    15,903
    Contact Federal and ask. I wonder if it's not an attempt to prevent bullet setback, as you can see it formed right at the base of the bullet.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  11. #10
    Senior Member Array boscobeans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    upstate new york
    Posts
    1,176
    Quote Originally Posted by FlyfishMike View Post

    The left bullet is the weird one.
    From the photos it looks like the case on the left round (weird one) is longer than the one on the right.

    Could be overly long brass got into the mix and was buckled when the rounds went through the final stage in manufacturing.

    I would not use them as it may be possible that when fired the case may flatten out and be lengthened forcing it beyond the actual chamber producing overly high pressures or worse.

    OMO

    bosco

  12. #11
    Member Array Tarowah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    51
    Ok here is a shot (a poor one) of a couple of the 147gr 9mm HST's that I carry. I used to do a press check every time I picked up a gun to carry it with me, after hearing about bullet setback and the such I now just use the loaded chamber indicator on the Glocks that have them and I look through the side of the breech on the Glocks without.

    Here is a shot of a couple of the rounds that I have press checked many dozens of times and reloaded back into the gun at least a dozen times, these will get shot on my next range trip.


    Gen 3 G19 ~ Gen 3 G19 OD ~ Gen 3 G34 ~ PT 738 ~ M&P 9mm ~ Ruger 22/45 4" bull barrel ~ Marlin 60~ PSA M4 Carbine ~

  13. #12
    Member Array Emrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Chaska, MN
    Posts
    89
    Majorlk,

    Ok, so call it a cannelure. It still does NOT crimp the bullet that low. That "cannelure" is way below where the base of the bullet would sit. And on a straight walled cartridge like this (not bottlenecked) they are taper crimped, not roll crimped (crimping the case mouth inward into a bullet's cannelure).

    I too have plenty of cases in either .45 and many in .38 Special with this "cannelure". In neither instance does any bullet sit low enough in the case to be crimped that low. And again, EVEN if it did sit that low, that is NOT the type of crimp you apply (on a .45, you can on a .38 since it head spaces off the rim, not the case mouth).

    As for why I wouldn't fire it? That case is deformed (over-formed?) pretty badly. It's not so much an issue of over pressure as it is weakened brass.

    Hey, I am more guilty than most people when it comes to "...just fire it, that dent will straighten out!...", but we're not talking a little ding on a case mouth or a little dent on a .223 shoulder (from extraction). This seems too deformed for me to risk it.

    Emrah

  14. #13
    Member Array Emrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Chaska, MN
    Posts
    89
    Oh, and with all that said, I have NO idea why those "cannelures" are around the cases of .45 and .38 (among others). I just know that bullets are not crimped down there.I

    If anyone knows, I'd be real interested to find out. Maybe I'll ask on some of the handloading forums I'm on...

    Emrah

  15. #14
    kpw
    kpw is offline
    VIP Member Array kpw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarowah View Post
    Ok here is a shot (a poor one) of a couple of the 147gr 9mm HST's that I carry. I used to do a press check every time I picked up a gun to carry it with me, after hearing about bullet setback and the such I now just use the loaded chamber indicator on the Glocks that have them and I look through the side of the breech on the Glocks without.

    Here is a shot of a couple of the rounds that I have press checked many dozens of times and reloaded back into the gun at least a dozen times, these will get shot on my next range trip.


    That's just ordinary bullet setback from repeated re-chambering. Press checking will not cause that but multiple re-chamberings do. You can see evidence of the re-chamberings on the rim. I personally don't do more than 2 re-chamberings before it goes in the shoot at the range bag.
    "In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power." -
    -- Marcus Tullius Cicero

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Naugatuck, CT
    Posts
    2,406
    Quote Originally Posted by Emrah View Post
    Majorlk,

    Ok, so call it a cannelure. It still does NOT crimp the bullet that low. That "cannelure" is way below where the base of the bullet would sit. And on a straight walled cartridge like this (not bottlenecked) they are taper crimped, not roll crimped (crimping the case mouth inward into a bullet's cannelure).
    Please show me where I said it did.

    I too have plenty of cases in either .45 and many in .38 Special with this "cannelure". In neither instance does any bullet sit low enough in the case to be crimped that low. And again, EVEN if it did sit that low, that is NOT the type of crimp you apply (on a .45, you can on a .38 since it head spaces off the rim, not the case mouth).
    Again, I never said that it did. Please stop putting words into my post that I did not say.

    As for why I wouldn't fire it? That case is deformed (over-formed?) pretty badly. It's not so much an issue of over pressure as it is weakened brass.
    That assumption is unsupported by anything but your supposition.

    Hey, I am more guilty than most people when it comes to "...just fire it, that dent will straighten out!...", but we're not talking a little ding on a case mouth or a little dent on a .223 shoulder (from extraction). This seems too deformed for me to risk it.

    Emrah
    Each to his own. FWIW, I've been reloading and shooting for about 40 years, so I am familiar with the terms used. I figure I've reloaded and shot probably a couple hundred thousand rounds over the years. - not to mention the factory stuff.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. CCW instructor, not normal.
    By Hotbrass in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 77
    Last Post: March 23rd, 2013, 11:38 PM
  2. I thought I was NORMAL
    By dukalmighty in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: October 24th, 2009, 11:35 PM
  3. Is this normal for my gun?
    By 1911luver in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: May 30th, 2009, 01:23 AM
  4. Is it normal?
    By sixliner6 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: January 22nd, 2009, 02:55 PM
  5. Is this wear normal?
    By skystud1 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: February 3rd, 2008, 10:41 AM

Search tags for this page

.45 federal hst
,
.45 hst
,
45 hst
,
federal .45 hst
,
federal 45 hst
,
federal hst
,

federal hst .45

,
federal hst .45 p
,

federal hst 45

,
federal hst 45 acp
,
federal hst 45 ballistics
,
federal hst 45 p
Click on a term to search for related topics.